Valve seals

[fatfatboy]

I'm putting some STD heads together for my 60 Pan. My manual shows no valve seals and the parts guy at Fog Hollow told me they didn't use valve seals until later (80's, I think).

Have any of you put valve seals in a Pan and is it recommended?

Thanks guys, I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to help us newbies.

[Panhead Ed]

Well that info is correct no seals till all the modern gasoline crap started ,with all the good stuff they removed to lubricate the top end larger clearances became the norm ..THANK YOU E.P.A. I'll guess you probly have some kinda bronze compond valve guide ? and it might even be machined to accept a seal . when HD started trying them we had to install the guide and then use a special tool to cut the guide to accept the seal. without seals you might experience some mild puffing if your doing alot of in town riding . whats your mechanic recomend? a little extra oil helps keep your air cooled engine well lubed and running cooler . Its a good idea if your gonna run seals to add alittle oil to your gas tank during the break in period while wear patterns are established.
There are allways other lines of thought on seal vs. no seal - this is mine . thanks your gonna love those heads excellent flow !

[Cotten]

The whole idea of seals is to keep the oil out.

This allows much closer tolerances, allowing longer life.
Seals installed with original Pan valve-to-guide specs will trash themselves quickly.

Top end lubrication from tetraethyl lead is over-exaggerated, almost mythological.
It was added for the purpose of octane ratings only.
Higher octane lowers combustion temperatures in an OHV, thus extending motor life.
Coincidental insulation between valves and seats was insignificant compared to its destructive effect upon oils.

...Cotten

[fatfatboy]

Well that info is correct no seals till all the modern gasoline crap started ,with all the good stuff they removed to lubricate the top end larger clearances became the norm ..THANK YOU E.P.A. I'll guess you probly have some kinda bronze compond valve guide ? and it might even be machined to accept a seal . when HD started trying them we had to install the guide and then use a special tool to cut the guide to accept the seal. without seals you might experience some mild puffing if your doing alot of in town riding . whats your mechanic recomend? a little extra oil helps keep your air cooled engine well lubed and running cooler . Its a good idea if your gonna run seals to add alittle oil to your gas tank during the break in period while wear patterns are established.
There are allways other lines of thought on seal vs. no seal - this is mine . thanks your gonna love those heads excellent flow !

I got this bike as a basket. The jugs on up were off the bottom end but the rods and pistons were still in place. The original heads are gone and this is my first Pan so I'm not sure what the original guides looked like but the ones that I got from the parts guy are cast, not bronze. The heads came bear.

I guess you could say my mechanic is me, helpers from the web and the guys at Fog Hollow. The guy at Fog Hollow said he does not know of anybody running them on Pans but since these are shovel valves he has some to put on if I want. But I am not knowlegable. But from what you are telling me it sounds like my best bet is not to run them. A little puffing aint going bother me at all and why add one more thing to cause any issues.

This weekend I was hoping to get the guides in and then prep the seats. I've got the guides in the freezer and I'm going to put the heads in the oven and heat them to 250. I also drilled a hole in the end of a dowel rod to use to put the guides in. Like I said this is my first attempt. I hope it works out.

Thanks for your help.

[Frankenstein]

I had my 62 heads redone 10 yrs ago, people in Chi town, can't remember the name now. At anyrate, installed new seats, guides and seals. They've been working fine ever since. Get over 1kmiles/qt. Suit yourself, but there's no reason they can't work just fine.

[john HD]

i have had them on my pan for years. no problems. and no smoke or excessive oil usage.

the only time i change my sparkplugs is when they get rusty on the outside.

john

[Cotten]

The choice of seal is important.

The longest-lived seems to be the metal-cased variety (K-Line), such as the factory used for the early 80s chubbles.
Pan (and early chubble) castiron guides occasionally have to be cut to accept .530 seals, and to allow free travel. The lower collar must be installed before the seal, so springpack shimming must be calculated first.

The rest of the "upgrade" is choosing valves with an appropriate stem coating, such as nitriding, or at the very least hard chrome. This is critical for running the tighter modern clearances.

...Cotten

[fatfatboy]

The rest of the "upgrade" is choosing valves with an appropriate stem coating, such as nitriding, or at the very least hard chrome. This is critical for running the tighter modern clearances.

...Cotten

My valves are stock replacements so I would assume that they would not be coated and will therefore not work with a seal. Is that correct?

[Cotten]

FatFatBoy!

I'm not sure what you mean by "stock replacement".
Any valve that is not oversize is still a stock replacement.

An un-coated stem will work with seals, just not as long.
How long is anybody's guess, as I have never attempted it.

(An uncoated stainless valvestem will gall into cast iron guides quickly, sealed or not.)

Vintage OEM valves were mated to very hard "carpenter steel" guides, and were expected to wear before the guide.
Today's guides are soft and "self-lubricating". H-D probably switched to them because it takes an expensive hone and a skilled operator to properly size hard guides.

...Cotten

[Frankenstein]

Cotten,
Thanks for the info on stainless and castiron. That's exactly what happened when I installed my first set of Manley stainless valves back in the '70's. They seized on the first startup. So I"ve avoided stainless ever since. Any clues on what or who "treats" their stainless?
Thanks,
Dick

[Cotten]

Dick!

I was nearly fired from a speed shop in the 80's for pointing out the stainless/castiron problem.
Then the owner fired me for other things, and continued to put out crap for years.

If your question about treating stainless means: Who will coat valvestems for you, then I would seek out an industrial hard-chrome plater.
(I knew locals who snuck them through Caterpillar's nitriding process, so that's probably available elsewhere.)

If you mean: Which manufacturers coat their stainless, I would think they all should offer it.
Kibblewhites certainly come to mind.

I haven't shopped for valves for nearly a decade, so I have no idea what the modern market offers.

....Cotten

[Frankenstein]

Thanks Cotten,
At least I know what question to ask, We have a couple of manufacturing facilities in the area still. I think I know the right back doors to ask the right question to now.
Dick