Ignition issue

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panhead_kicker
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Re: Ignition issue

#16

Post by panhead_kicker »

Mongrel505558 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:26 pm ...An ungrounded condenser or one with a bad connection to the points = no condenser. Everything looks healthy in the picture you provided....
I considered the bright blue spark at the points unhealthy, so that has had my focus on condensors. I will ohm out the connection between the condensor casing and the battery negative. I am 5 condensors deep in this, and have a difficult time believing they are all bad, but I may pull a known good one from my Servi to try. (the pan has dual point breaker, and the condensors are difficult to get to!)
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Re: Ignition issue

#17

Post by nifty »

Panhead-kicker,
I'm with Mongrel505558 on possible poor ground.
Clip a jumper from batt neg to timer for rough check
Regardless, I would run a non-stock dedicated ground wire through harness sleeve to timer points plate.
Also
As you well know, original dual point condensers are underneath the points/breaker plate, which make condenser changing a chore because accessing condensers destroys precise timing. Before timing, ensure condensers are good.

However, condensers don’t mind where they live so long as they are dry and relatively cool. A good move is to relocate condensers to under coil cover or similar, (condensers are wired to points terminals of coils). Last time I did this on a Pan dual point I used a pair of good automotive condensers mounted off OE coil bracket. Many Brit bikes did remote condensers with coils and condensers under tank, points & advance unit in timing cover.
Nifty
panhead_kicker
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Re: Ignition issue

#18

Post by panhead_kicker »

panhead_kicker wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:09 pm
panheadrider1961 wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:55 pm Coil condition ?
Both plugs are pretty clean. I'll pull the coil cover and check resistances, I've also got a spare to swap in...
Coil primary measures ~5.6 ohms, Secondary ~12k ohms. I'm not certain if these values are considered good. Thought I had a new spare, but not. :(
Last edited by panhead_kicker on Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ignition issue

#19

Post by panhead_kicker »

panhead_kicker wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:20 pm
Mongrel505558 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:26 pm ...An ungrounded condenser or one with a bad connection to the points = no condenser. Everything looks healthy in the picture you provided....
I considered the bright blue spark at the points unhealthy, so that has had my focus on condensors. I will ohm out the connection between the condensor casing and the battery negative...
Condensor casing to battery negative <.5 ohms , I consider this good.
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Re: Ignition issue

#20

Post by panheadrider1961 »

3 ohms point ignition ,5 ohms electronic you are cooking points
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Re: Ignition issue

#21

Post by panheadrider1961 »

Correcting last statement 5 ohms point 3 ohms electronic still believe 14.7 volts is causing problem
Mongrel505558
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Re: Ignition issue

#22

Post by Mongrel505558 »

panhead_kicker wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:20 pm
Mongrel505558 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:26 pm ...An ungrounded condenser or one with a bad connection to the points = no condenser. Everything looks healthy in the picture you provided....
I considered the bright blue spark at the points unhealthy, so that has had my focus on condensors. I will ohm out the connection between the condensor casing and the battery negative. I am 5 condensors deep in this, and have a difficult time believing they are all bad, but I may pull a known good one from my Servi to try. (the pan has dual point breaker, and the condensors are difficult to get to!)
You're right that the bright blue spark is unhealthy. I was looking at the condenser mounting bracket and the wire and terminal for the condenser for physical issues, but yeah, that spark is pretty blue.
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Re: Ignition issue

#23

Post by Mongrel505558 »

panhead_kicker wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:24 pm
panhead_kicker wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:20 pm
Mongrel505558 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:26 pm ...An ungrounded condenser or one with a bad connection to the points = no condenser. Everything looks healthy in the picture you provided....
I considered the bright blue spark at the points unhealthy, so that has had my focus on condensors. I will ohm out the connection between the condensor casing and the battery negative...
Condensor casing to battery negative <.5 ohms , I consider this good.
As good as you will get, or need.
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Re: Ignition issue

#24

Post by Andygears »

Just a reminder, automobiles with points ignition often used a ballast resister to reduce volts to 8 or 9 to keep from burning up points.

Andygears
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Re: Ignition issue

#25

Post by Mongrel505558 »

panheadrider1961 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:53 pm Correcting last statement 5 ohms point 3 ohms electronic still believe 14.7 volts is causing problem
One way to find out once and for all: temporarily disconnect the generator and run the bike. This should bring the primary circuit supply voltage down to around 12V with a healthy battery. Check it with a meter. Look for that bright blue spark across your points. I still say something else is going on. Your points shouldn't be running on the ragged edge where two more volts supplied to the primary circuit would ruin them. But I've been wrong before, so might as well give it a try.
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Re: Ignition issue

#26

Post by nifty »

Andygears wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:31 am Just a reminder, automobiles with points ignition often used a ballast resister to reduce volts to 8 or 9 to keep from burning up points.

Andygears
No, the automotive ignition ballast resistor & lower than system-voltage coil was invented for electric start cars to compensate for huge battery voltage drop when cranking, particularly in cold weather. Ford may have been first on their 6 volt cars back in at least 1940's, resistor mounted inside cabin, behind dashboard. Re-invented and popular in 60's & 70's 12v cars with resistor typically mounted on engine bay firewall, or inner fender. The ballast resistor package was intended to deliver fatter spark during starter motor cranking, nothing to do with burning points.

BTW, an auto ballast can be used on OE H-D 6v coil/coils when system converted to 12v.
To run original OE 6V dual-point coils on 12v use a common automobile type ballast resistor, connect wire from ign switch to one end of resistor, connect other end of resistor to connector/bussbar/link between both + terminals of H-D dual coils. A 1.06 ohm “universal” ballast resistor (car) results in 6.8v at coils, when coil terminal grounded i.e. when points closed. Under normal conditions stock 6v generator delivers around 7 volts which won’t damage 6v coils. But if you leave ignition switched on for hours with motor stopped, you will likely burn out any coil, or coils, on anything.

The ballast resistor consumes electrical power and generates some heat, keep away from loose wiring. Assuming stock fatbob tanks, IMO a safe and practical place for resistor mounting is on top side of under-tank frame tube, clamp-on using a worm-drive hose clamp, don’t over tighten.
The points & condensers don’t care if system is 6v or 12v.

Apologies for being off-topic of Panhead-kicker's problem.

Nifty
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Re: Ignition issue

#27

Post by panheadrider1961 »

he has 3 things happening with high charge rate, 1 boiling the battery, 2 amping his coil beyond capacity,3 frying the points from to high voltage. if you ran a late 60s t0 early 70s point type ignition who ever auto was built by you would fry points if not for added ballast resistor chyrsler products was a ceramic block on firewall all others was a condenser wired to positive side of coil with a made for bracket if the chyrsler part wound resister spring in ceramic block burnt into no crank at all grind starter till battery dead , all others no ballast would cook points in a weeks time to severe pitting from trying to be welded shut from high voltage.
secondly did his problem start after new high output not properly adjusted regulator install if so that started problem jacked voltage.
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Re: Ignition issue

#28

Post by panheadrider1961 »

and problem 4 condenser should be cooked inside also they will only condense so much voltage before they burn and blow, any body ever seen one look like a football from overload voltage i have
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Re: Ignition issue

#29

Post by panheadrider1961 »

solution install a properly adjusted regulator on motorcycle that is putting 13.2 to 13.8 volts back in battery at 1200-1500 rpms
panhead_kicker
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Re: Ignition issue

#30

Post by panhead_kicker »

panheadrider1961 wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:36 pm and problem 4 condenser should be cooked inside also they will only condense so much voltage before they burn and blow, any body ever seen one look like a football from overload voltage i have
I will correct the high voltage today and hopefully get a few miles in. I've not seen any physical damage to any of the condensors so far. But I have seen capacitors in other applications fail or failing, noted by the bulging end of their can, that should be flat.
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