1953 45' servi car
Oil return problem
-
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:19 pm
- Bikes: 1953 servi car
1968 xlch - Location: Montreal,
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 4 times
1953 45' servi car
Hey everyone, I'm hoping someone can help me out with this one.
So I guess I will jump right in and explain what I've done and what the problem is. The motor was running great, but had no oil return from the scavenger pump. So I pulled the motor out and removed the cam cover only to find very little oil in the cam chest. So I removed the cam gears and idler, scavenger pump, pinion gear and spirel gear.
Now here's where I'm at:
_ motor TDC line in window.
_ spirel gear on shaft with the mark facing outwards.
Scavenger breather screen and keyway with split rings are in good condition and in place.
Scavenger pump breather hole lines up in notch when pinion gear is 5/16 from cam chest face.
All cam gears are aligned with the mark on the pinion gear.
Oil pump is installed on the cam cover and lined up with the two tangs.
I timed the distributor and the bike started like a dream!!
Pulled the return oil line and there's no oil coming out of it.
So I dropped the scavenger pump
out of the motor and there is no oil dripping out of the bottom of the motor cam chest. i pulled oil pump off and I have oil all over the new oil pump gasket.
So this is where I'm at guys and I'm hoping you can tell me that I missed something important because I'm kind of at a loss about the motor. I also have no idea what the gallon per minute of oil should be on the return line from the scavenger pump.
So I guess I will jump right in and explain what I've done and what the problem is. The motor was running great, but had no oil return from the scavenger pump. So I pulled the motor out and removed the cam cover only to find very little oil in the cam chest. So I removed the cam gears and idler, scavenger pump, pinion gear and spirel gear.
Now here's where I'm at:
_ motor TDC line in window.
_ spirel gear on shaft with the mark facing outwards.
Scavenger breather screen and keyway with split rings are in good condition and in place.
Scavenger pump breather hole lines up in notch when pinion gear is 5/16 from cam chest face.
All cam gears are aligned with the mark on the pinion gear.
Oil pump is installed on the cam cover and lined up with the two tangs.
I timed the distributor and the bike started like a dream!!
Pulled the return oil line and there's no oil coming out of it.
So I dropped the scavenger pump
out of the motor and there is no oil dripping out of the bottom of the motor cam chest. i pulled oil pump off and I have oil all over the new oil pump gasket.
So this is where I'm at guys and I'm hoping you can tell me that I missed something important because I'm kind of at a loss about the motor. I also have no idea what the gallon per minute of oil should be on the return line from the scavenger pump.
-
- Moderator
- Senior Member
- Posts: 8378
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
- Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
- Has thanked: 478 times
- Been thanked: 2933 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
Did you prime the system before starting? Bleed all air out of the feed line? It takes quite a while to pump oil throughout an empty engine before it starts to return oil. How long did you run it? The scavenger pump can return much more oil as than the pump can deliver so even when fully operational the return is sporadic.
And the "line" on the flywheel is not TDC, it is the timing mark and approximately 35 degrees BTDC.
And the "line" on the flywheel is not TDC, it is the timing mark and approximately 35 degrees BTDC.
-
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:19 pm
- Bikes: 1953 servi car
1968 xlch - Location: Montreal,
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 4 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
Hey Rubone, thanks for the info.
So I bled the air out of the line and then hooked it up to the oil pump. I only ran the engine for about a minute to a minute and a half. Should I have ran it longer?
I'm a little concerned about overheat by running a motor if there's no oil in it.
I was thinking that I could pour a pint into the cam chest. What do you think?
I know that the line is actually btdc, it's just a habit to call it TDC. Sorry if I misled anyone with that.
So I bled the air out of the line and then hooked it up to the oil pump. I only ran the engine for about a minute to a minute and a half. Should I have ran it longer?
I'm a little concerned about overheat by running a motor if there's no oil in it.
I was thinking that I could pour a pint into the cam chest. What do you think?
I know that the line is actually btdc, it's just a habit to call it TDC. Sorry if I misled anyone with that.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5327
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 pm
- Bikes: 1950 Panhead, Resto-Mod
1968 90", 5 Speed Shovelhead,
1984 Home Built Custom Evo 100" Bagger - Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
- Has thanked: 2801 times
- Been thanked: 2158 times
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1500
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
- Bikes: 1937 U big flathead, 88" stroker, dual port, big cams, pop-up pistons
- Location: Lynbrook, New York
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 387 times
- Contact:
Re: 1953 45' servi car
The cam gears never align when the breather is timed, those are unrelated events. This is one of the most common mis-readings of the factory service literature
The pinion gear and all 4 cams align, but nothing else.
The flywheel timing mark is centered when the hole in the return pump rotor appears in the slot on the pump tower, and the pinion gear is correctly spaced away from the right case's gasket surface. Different distances are the only change between 45, UL, K and 1957-76 Sportster.
If this is the problem, the oil is passing through the pin and bearings as it should, but may be collecting in the case since the breather does not open during the down-stroke to pressurize the case and force the oil through the rotor slot into the cam chest.
Open the sludge trap bolt - I hope the cases are full!
The pinion gear and all 4 cams align, but nothing else.
The flywheel timing mark is centered when the hole in the return pump rotor appears in the slot on the pump tower, and the pinion gear is correctly spaced away from the right case's gasket surface. Different distances are the only change between 45, UL, K and 1957-76 Sportster.
If this is the problem, the oil is passing through the pin and bearings as it should, but may be collecting in the case since the breather does not open during the down-stroke to pressurize the case and force the oil through the rotor slot into the cam chest.
Open the sludge trap bolt - I hope the cases are full!
-
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:19 pm
- Bikes: 1953 servi car
1968 xlch - Location: Montreal,
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 4 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
I'll definitely open it up and see if any oil comes out. And you wisdom is appreciated Rubone, I'll have to get into the habit of calling it the timing mark. How long could I potentially run the motor
To see if oil starts coming out of the scavenger pump?
To see if oil starts coming out of the scavenger pump?
-
- Moderator
- Senior Member
- Posts: 8378
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
- Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
- Has thanked: 478 times
- Been thanked: 2933 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
You can pull the oil pressure switch to make sure it is pumping fresh oil in. If it is you can run it as long as it takes to get return oil flowing back. I usually put at least a cup in the crankcase and flood the cams before firing so it starts to return a bit quicker. But if stuff was well oiled when assembled it will be fine for a few minutes until it returns.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:27 pm
- Bikes: WLA
- Has thanked: 58 times
- Been thanked: 144 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
As Robbie and others mentioned already, just soak the camchest before closing it with the cover.
MAKE SURE THE FEEDPUMP WORKS!
So remove the oilpressure switch, and kick the engine a few times without turning ignition on.
If there's no oil dripping from the switch hole, something isn't right..
If so, install the switch and reconnect it.
Again, kick the engine over a few times with ignition on and watch what the oillight is doing.
If it stay's on...something is wrong.
If not; it's safe to start the motor.
Since you poored some oil in the chest, the returnline should drip in the tank...check if so!
MAKE SURE THE FEEDPUMP WORKS!
So remove the oilpressure switch, and kick the engine a few times without turning ignition on.
If there's no oil dripping from the switch hole, something isn't right..
If so, install the switch and reconnect it.
Again, kick the engine over a few times with ignition on and watch what the oillight is doing.
If it stay's on...something is wrong.
If not; it's safe to start the motor.
Since you poored some oil in the chest, the returnline should drip in the tank...check if so!
-
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:19 pm
- Bikes: 1953 servi car
1968 xlch - Location: Montreal,
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 4 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
Thanks for all the help everyone, I'll be trying all these ideas this weekend and hopefully it works.
If it does work then it's on to electrical work
If it does work then it's on to electrical work
-
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:19 pm
- Bikes: 1953 servi car
1968 xlch - Location: Montreal,
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 4 times
Re: 1953 45' servi car
Hey everyone, I just wanted to update you guys on the oil return problem. So I retired the scavenger pump and put about a cup of oil in the cam chest. Started the bike and I have a beautiful oil return coming out of the return line. I want to thank all of you for your help in solving my problem.
Sincerely Shawn.
Sincerely Shawn.
-
- Member
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:19 pm
- Bikes: 1953 servi car
1968 xlch - Location: Montreal,
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 4 times