A complete checklist on sumping?

I want to make sure I don't miss something while frustrated

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FlatheadMaverick
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A complete checklist on sumping?

#1

Post by FlatheadMaverick »

My late father and I finished restoring his 1946 WL 45 in 2017, and we put a whole two miles on it while sorting it out. I've posted about this previously, somewhere on the forum.
He died in 2018. The new kicker gear broke in the tranny that same year, and the cycle shop that rebuilt it originally, took another year to rebuild it again, finding a bad, over-hardened gear.
I finally got the tranny back in the bike a couple weeks ago, with much weeping and gnashing of teeth, and am still waiting on a few new hardware parts to button it up.
Then last week I found the entire contents of the oil tank on the floor.
I'm about to scream.
I've been reading all the posts about sumping, but I can't tell where the oil came from (the primary chain is dry, and there are no oily, hanging drips on the frame), so I don't know quite how to proceed.
I'll admit, I don't want to have to read forty-eleven different posts to compile my own checklist of steps I need to take next.
Is there a list somewhere on the forum, an explanation in one of the manuals I have, or a list one of you kind souls can offer in this post that steps me through what I need to do (and not overlook) to get past this on this model?
Right now I have a very large, beautiful paperweight (or oil-pan weight, depending on perspective).
Pascal
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#2

Post by Pascal »

First of all, I'm sorry about your dad.
But what a nice fact you rebuild it together.

Sumping is something all drysump motorcycles of the era do, european and american alike.
It could have different reasons, from worn balls to damaged surfaces of the bushings..
Personally I was fed up of trying to cope with it, and after exchanging parts and relapping the balls mine still sumped.
I ended up installing a ballvalve in the feedline, and now I wouldn't want anything else.

Yes, some will say it's not original, some will say it's a recepy for desaster...but it's such an ease..
And untill 1936, all HD's had ballvalved gaslines, so I don't bother about the looks
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#3

Post by RooDog »

Pascal wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:37 pm First of all, I'm sorry about your dad.
But what a nice fact you rebuild it together.

Sumping is something all drysump motorcycles of the era do, european and american alike.
It could have different reasons, from worn balls to damaged surfaces of the bushings..
Personally I was fed up of trying to cope with it, and after exchanging parts and relapping the balls mine still sumped.
I ended up installing a ballvalve in the feedline, and now I wouldn't want anything else.

Yes, some will say it's not original, some will say it's a recepy for desaster...but it's such an ease..
And untill 1936, all HD's had ballvalved gaslines, so I don't bother about the looks
Agreed....
Harleys are very forgiving of an interruption in oiling. If you forget to turn on the ball valve the little red OIL dash light should be a clue, or else shut her down as soon a you hear a strange noise, it's probably the BV left closed. Besides, one only needs to open the valve just once a day, and leave it on during the course of a day's riding, or even an entire weekend, in my experience.
.....RooDog....
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#4

Post by kitabel »

First: in my experience, it refers only to drainage of oil (held in the tank) through the oil feed pump* (side-mount pump on the cam chest cover in 45 & UL). Sumping will not empty the oil on lo the floor, something else is wrong. I suspect a leak between the feed pump and the cam cover.
Oil cannot drain from the tank through any other circuit: the return (lower) pump and vent lines enter above the oil level in the tank.
Despite the frequency with which it happens it's not a design flaw or normal occurrence, it's a failure. The leakage past the check ball (spring tension is 2 lb. IIRC) enters the engine through the pump body, and fills the cam chest and eventually the crankcase. As long as the oil level in the tank is higher than the oil in the engine drainage will continue.
A manual, solenoid or vacuum valve in the feed line will stop drainage, but operating the engine without oil flow will damage something, more slowly than an engine with plain bearings.
Valve type vs. feature:
Manual (water valve etc.): cheap, ugly, very reliable, no safety features, be sure your OP light is working
Solenoid (normally closed): $$$, can be wired to open with ignition on, remember your voltage, it's an amp draw whenever the engine is running, choose one with larger opening than the oil line (3/8"+), add a green light to the circuit for safety
Vacuum (normally closed): $$$, won't open until the engine starts, requires a hose connection and fitting to the intake manifold, no safety features, choose one with larger opening than the oil line (3/8"+), be sure your OP light is working
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#5

Post by Pascal »

Ugly? Opinions differ...

I use this valve, it works simple and reliable;
Screenshot_20210317-200844.png
Screenshot_20210317-200844.png (299.14 KiB) Viewed 1078 times
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#6

Post by Pascal »

...and as mentioned; untill 1937 all HD's had a ballvalve in either the gas- and/or oilline.
I fitted the valve in the exact same spot on my WLA's, so although not OEM...not odd-looking
rps20210317_202524.jpg
rps20210317_202524.jpg (73.99 KiB) Viewed 1072 times
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#7

Post by RooDog »

It's easy to see and feel, shouldn't be a problem....
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#8

Post by PanPal »

Emptying the oil tank from 2018 to now wouldn't be so alarming to me. The belly of the motor may still have oil in it up to the sprocket shaft hole. What is left in the motor should pump back into the tank when you get your parts and start it. Just don't top off the oil tank before you get it started and pump whats left in the motor back to the tank. Now if there is really no oil in the motor, it is likely as Kitabel states. And if keeping a cookie sheet under the bike and starting it when not riding for extended periods of time are more than you can stand, the auto or manual valve sound like winners.
FlatheadMaverick
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#9

Post by FlatheadMaverick »

Thanks, all your your helpful responses. I do believe I will be getting that manual valve to just minimize the frustration.
It's very weird to me that, as long as this cycle's been in the family (since 1949) no one has mentioned this ever happening. Plus, it's been sitting with oil in the tank like this since 2017. Four years it's fine, and then, boom, it completely empties sometime within several days.
I've learned something new the hard way!
svkiwi
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#10

Post by svkiwi »

When I purchased my WL, the previous owner explained the sumping so common in these old things. Explained how to drain the crankcase via the little drain screw at bottom of case prior to firing it up. Explained that 'they all do it!'..
I bought and fitted a brand new oil pump. Since then, it has never sumped. So, 'they don't all do it'. If oil bypasses the spring loaded ball into the pump, it is obvious that that particular valve is not correctly doing its job.
I have read on here of individuals fitting viton balls instead of the original steel balls. These would appear to give a better seal. Try burnishing the seats and fitting viton balls.
RooDog
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#11

Post by RooDog »

I'm go'n out on a limb here and guess that there is a leaking flaw in either the feed oil line, or maybe even the pump may have developed a crack, for that much oil to dump in such a short amount of time.....
....RooDog....
Pascal
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#12

Post by Pascal »

Let me be clear; a new or rebuild and regrind oilpump should do the trick as originally intended.
So when new no bike should sump.....probably..
Over time, the balls wear and their seats can't cope, resulting in sumping..
Or the rotating body holding the vanes (or the vanes themselves) wear, again resulting in sumping..
A tap covers all those problems, but does hold one inherent quality....; you NEED to open and close it.

Once it's set in your system, it will be second nature; open gasvalve, open oiltap, close choke and start.
In the end of the day; close gasvalve and oiltap, and you're done...easy-pacey.
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#13

Post by Andygears »

Maybe you don’t have too much of a problem. My Evo sumps but only on occasion. I think it may have more to do with temperature of the oil than much else. If the bike is started and run a bunch, the oil warms in the oil tank, the motor, and all the oil passages, and the oil thins a bit and lubes the check valve. But if the bike is only started occasionally and the motor warmed up but oil in the oil tank is cold, the check valve is open and cools without closing. I find this condition causes my rarely ridden Evo to sump when it has been started after being run in the garage, last time, just to warm the engine but not exfixiate myself.

My opinion on my wet sumping, your results may vary.
Andygears
FlatheadMaverick
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#14

Post by FlatheadMaverick »

Another interesting development... maybe. I called the cycle shop that did the engine rebuild, and they told me that the service record for the rebuild says, "R & R Oil pump," meaning "remove & replace." The guy said that typically means replaced with a new oil pump.
I don't know how I would verify that, but it still makes me wonder why a check valve ball/seat would fail to operate properly after such a short amount of time/use.
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Re: A complete checklist on sumping?

#15

Post by RooDog »

I worked in the automotive repair business for many years. During much of that time we manually wrote estimate/repair orders using print manuals sourced from different vendors, Mitchel,and Motors were two I recall. Often the terms "R&R" and R&I" were used interchangeably. Remove and Replace, or Remove and Install, could mean remove and reinstall the original part, or remove and replace with a new part, remove and install a new part, or install the original part, the only constant was the word "remove" part of the phrases. Unless there is a dollar/price listed with a R&R/I line item, one must assume that the old original part went back on. So no price equals no new part.....
....RooDog.....
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