58-64 frame vs. 65 up

[panhead_kicker]

Anyone know the difference in seat height between the 58-64 frame vs. 65 up?

[neilw]

I'm assembling a 59 pan at the moment and also have a bare 69 shovel frame sitting in the other room .If you tell me where to measure I'll be glad to ..both are stock frames.
Neil

[panhead_kicker]

If you tell me where to measure

Thanks for the offer Neil.
I suppose if you measured the length of the seat post from the top of the cross bracket at the bottom to the lip of the post at the top, that ought to tell the tale?

[neilw]

These frames seem tio measure the same ,I'm sending photos ,I hope you can see the numbers on the tape measure. They apear to both be 18 inches
Neil
I better edit this...
I just noticed the difference in heighth between the 2 frames is past the seat post,maybe 3 inches past it the frame sorta bends upward to meet up with the shock mounts,and majke way for the starterand oil tank. .my early frame looks like I could lay a straight edge all the way along to where the step xcomes up .Not so on the 1969 frame ,it's staight till a little opast the seat post then starts to bend up .You might be able to make it out in thephoto,its gradual ,but there none the less.

[panhead_kicker]

the difference in heighth between the 2 frames is past the seat post

Thanks for the visual Neil! Both seat posts look like they rise at the same angle. I guess the ride heigth of the two frames would be the same then, all else being equal.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Neil, I've been assembling some files recently relating to identification of H-D frames etc. But your photo of the bare frame doesn't tally with my info regarding a stock Big Twin frame for 1969 so I have a question to ask. Can you explain how you identified the bare frame as a stock 1969 model? Thanks. Eric

[neilw]

Sure thing Eric ,on the top engine mounting tab there will be a number and letter my 1969 frame has E 9 clearly stamped into it .I didn't know it even had the stamp on it until I phoned the Harley head office ,and spoke to a fellow whos job it is to help out with restorations and such ,he told me where to look and even waited till I had a peek ,then said it was a 1969 frame. 20 years ago when I phoned Harley they were very slow to give any details ,I beleive the receptionist would say she would see if she could get any info ,but doubted it .A year ago They mailed me stuff ,emailed me photos of how my 59 tanks looked ,and gave me so much info I couldn,t remembner it all.The guy even new what was on e'bay that was for older Harleys.very impressive . here's aphoto of the frame.
Neil

[Speeding Big Twin]

Neil, thanks for your reply but I'm going to disagree somewhat with the person at Harley-Davidson. I knew that H-D stamped a date code into the Big Twin frame top engine mount, beginning with the 1952 model. But its interpretation depends on the style of frame involved. And now that you've posted a full photo of your frame, more things have me intrigued and those extra things don't apply to a Big Twin frame for 1969.

But first, I notice you have two H-Ds from the 1990s so you obviously know about the VINs on their frames. Will I assume the steering head on your bare frame doesn't even have a boss for a VIN? Eric

[panhead_kicker]

Hey Eric, I can probably add a bit of info to the fray. My frame has an H8 stamped above the top motor mount, but the neck lock is solid cast as a 69 I think would be (68 last year for this lock). Also has the pad lock loop which I think began in 69. Of course there is no vin pad on the neck. I can get pics if you like. What is the H in the H8 stand for?

[neilw]

No boss on my 69 (suposedly) frame for a serial number.Heres a photo of the neck and rest of the frame.I'd like to know what year it actually is .I bought it as a 1960,but after learning a bit ,and noticed no stepdown I used one off a 59.its powdercoated but the digits 8 1 can be made out. on the eng.mount.I wonder if it's really a 59 ???.
Neil

[Speeding Big Twin]

Neil, if the E 9 is good then I think your top mount was stamped in May 1979. The code doesn't always correspond exactly to the model year but I think it does in your case because my H-D parts catalogs tell me the electronic ignition module assembly was first introduced for the 1980 models and I think a flat plate was welded between the front downtubes to accommodate the assembly but your frame doesn't have that plate and I can't see any evidence that one has been removed.

I think you have an FX series frame, as opposed to an FL. Obviously a 1979 frame would usually have a VIN boss but I've run across other 1970-later frames that didn't have one. The boss could have been removed for one reason or another although I can't see any sign of that in your photo. Is there any evidence to suggest a VIN boss was removed? H-D would have sold replacement frames at times and possibly replacement steering heads but I don't know if 1970-later replacements had a VIN boss. Can anybody comment on that?

In your first photo I noticed there was no mount for the rear of a right-hand footboard but there would have been if the frame was 1969. Also, I'm under the impression that the elongated hole in the top mount didn't appear prior to 1970 but if anyone disagrees with that start year please say so. AFAIK, the style of opening in your other top mount was used for all Big Twin swingarm frames through 1969 but not after 1969.

In your full photo I spotted other things not consistent with 1969:
1. The two-hole lug at the rear of the lower rear casting was first introduced for 1977 on both the FL and the FX series and accommodates a passenger footpeg bracket.
2. You have a bracket on the left front downtube and it appears to be welded on. That bracket was first welded on for the 1977 model year to accommodate a horn on at least some of the FX series, but the bracket didn't appear on the FLs. The horn was first positioned near there for the 1971-1972 FXs but it was attached to a clamp that wrapped around the downtube and the clamp was secured by one or two set screws. For the 1973 FX the horn was moved and it didn't go back to the downtube until 1977.
3. A 1969 frame would have an extension incorporated into the lower left rear casting to accommodate the brake line.
4. A 1969 frame would have a small tab welded to the left frame tube just to the rear of the lower front engine mount for the brake line tee.

And have a look in the vertical recesses of the lower rear castings and tell us what numbers you find there. Info on your other frame to follow soon.

panhead_kicker, info for you also to follow soon. Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

Neil, are you sure your other frame has 8 1 on the top mount? The code usually consists of a numeric character followed by a capital letter or vice versa. But not two numeric characters only. It's possible the second character is the letter I although some evidence suggests the letter I was not used by H-D in some/all codes after 1948 due to confusion with the number 1. Could the second character be part of another letter such as E, F, H, etc? Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

panhead_kicker, due to H being the eighth letter of the alphabet it means the top mount was stamped in the eighth month so the H represents August. But as I mentioned to Neil the code doesn't always correspond exactly to the model year of the frame and this may be what happened in your case because you're correct about the steering head lock boss being unmachined for 1969. So you may have a 1969 frame that was stamped in August 1968.

On some 1960s frames, stamped into the left side of the steering head you may find a capital letter followed by three or four numeric characters but they are very small and may be hard to detect. If you find them can you just tell us what the letter is because the letter may be used as a guide regarding the year of the frame. Photos of both sides of your frame/bike may also help with ID. And also a photo of the right-hand side of the steering head so we can compare it with Neil's. Eric

[panhead_kicker]

Photos of both sides of your frame/bike may also help with ID. And also a photo of the right-hand side of the steering head so we can compare it with Neil's

Well here's a few less than good shots.

frame1.JPG

frame2.JPG

NeckL.JPG

[neilw]

the 8 1 stamped on the top motor mount on the 59 is very clearly an 8 ,like the stamps you buy at the hardware store the 1 or I is thicker and deeper and wider ,like a totally different stamping proceedure. Another thing the 69(??) has the digits stamped on the left side of the mount ,the 59 has them stamped on the right side.
Also the 59 has digits stamped in the little indentation directly below where the instrument base plate forward bolt goes ,the 69 doesn,t
OH yeah ,the 69 looks stock in the area where a boss would be for a serial # .it's just to good a job for it to be ground off.
Now I'm really curious about both frames .
If I can send any more info let me know .