lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

Identification of case numbers and cylinder heads
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tschukojr
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lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#1

Post by tschukojr »

so i saw some of theese bikes that folks post on e-bay-re-posted here-----------so we see alot different types of numbers, different fonts i guess one could say---------------------------------so acording to palmers book, closed fours prior to 42 and open top after 44-- but how long did the motor co. run open top fours-all the way to the alternator style case, ? recently a 64 was shown with a closed top 4---- i see some closed in 60 era pans--right or wrong-------also 6 + 9-------i look at the examples over on vintage american motorcycles, and i see all kinds , i know what palmer 's got in his book, but i am seeing not only straight and round backs, some i saw have a strange slantedback-----6-----just wondering so if i gotta look at a bike for anyonei got some idea-------------thanks -----------tony
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#2

Post by RUBONE »

Tony,
Search the threads here from Eric aka speedingbigtwin. He has covered all your questions on VIN numbers. Several '60s things to consider, one being the odd/even rule. Many '63 models can have as many as 3 different sixes, roundback, straightback, and slanted. It seems to be a particular thing to '63. Also '69 uses a unique six/nine. And be aware that Chris also has WRONG numbers on his site for examples but not all are marked as such.
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#3

Post by 1950Panhead »

There are variations of the vin fonts through the years as you have observed.
The complete set of rules is complex and hard to remember.
The best way to verify a vin as factory is comparison to examples from the same year.
For 64, straight back 6 and 9, cross 4 in "64", open 4 to the right.
Jerry

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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#4

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Tony, I sent you a PM re 1948–65 Panhead serial number (SN) characters and I’ll add a few things below.

Palmer’s 37–64 book and his 32–52 military book both contain mistakes relating to SNs so I would use those books as guides only. I’ll assume you have the 37–64 book and you’ll notice on page 6 it says: ‘For the years we are dealing with ...‘ But below that it states: ‘All 1920–1969 Harley-Davidson VIN ...’ So it is unclear exactly what years Palmer is talking about: 1937–64 or 1920–69. And what he says about all 1920–69 H-D VINs following the same pattern is incorrect.

In SNs, Harley used at least four different closed-top 4s prior to the introduction of a certain type of open-top 4. And the earliest I have seen that open 4 is on the 1942 XA. I do not know exactly when the open 4 was introduced for other Harleys but it appears in SNs for the E-series, G-series, U-series and W-series as early as 1943 models and the earliest example I have from those machines is a Knucklehead stamped 43E11++. You’ll also find the open-top 4 on some WLAs that are stamped 42WLA but the earliest of them would probably be 1943 models due to the way Harley identified WLAs for 1942–45.

Knuckleheads continued with the open-top 4 through 1947 in the year portion and also in the sequence portion. The same applied for the U-series through 1948, the W-series through 1952 and the G-series through at least 1964. (See below for more on the G-series.) Panheads used it in both portions for 1948–65. However, at least one exception applied regarding the year portion of some 1964 Pans as shown in the photo posted by Jerry. But on occasion you will still find the open-top 4 in the year portion for 1964 Pans and I have three examples so far. The same exception applied to the 1964 GE but once again it seems it did not happen with all of them because one photo I have appears to show the open 4 in the year portion although the picture is not great.

Generator Shovelheads used the open-top 4 in the sequence portion for early-1966 models but seem to have changed to a sans serif, closed 4 with a pointed top before the end of the 66 model year and then that closed 4 seems to have been retained through 1969. And it looks like the closed 4 in the 64 Pan photo. As I indicated above, it seems 1964 GEs can bear either type of 4 in the year portion. For 1965–66 GEs I have no examples of sequence 4s but my photos for 1967–69 GEs show the closed type.

NB: There is at least one aftermarket open-top 4 on sale and it is fairly easy to spot the difference when compared to a Harley 4. At below left is a Harley stamping and at below right is the 4 which I think is AM although I will leave its maker unnamed:

Image Image

For Shovels and Servi-Cars, most characters changed for 1970 models with the intro of the new format and new VIN location etc but the 4 appears to be the same as, or at least very similar to, the closed style in Jerry’s picture. And it appears to have continued through 1973/74 Servi-Cars and through 1980 Shovelheads. (Apparently there were some 1974 model Servis but they had 1973 model engines.)

I do not know what happened with the 4 after 1980 as I do not collect many 1981-later VINs. However, my 1999 FXST VIN contains a 4 and it is a sans serif, closed style with a pointed top.

More to follow.
Eric
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#5

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Harley used a few types of 6/9, some round-back and some curved-back, in the early years and sometimes the curved design can look straight. But it seems the change from curved-back 6/9 to the real straight-back happened at some point during the 1937 model year with Flatheads as well as Knuckleheads. In other words, early-37 models usually had a curved-back 6/9 and later-37 models usually had the straight-back. (Certain other characters also changed part of the way through the 37 model year.)

As you’ll see via my PM, for 1959–62 Panheads Harley used at least two types of 6/9 in the year portion of the SN: straight-back; and round-back. But in the sequence portion I would only expect to find a straight-back. Both types were also used in the year portion for Servi-Cars for 1959 and 62, and probably also for 1960–61.

NB: Palmer indicates at least three times in his 37–64 book that the round-back 6 was not used for 1962 but he is incorrect. In the 32–52 book he provides an explanation re the straight-back 6 but that explanation is wrong. Anyway, both types of 6 were indeed used in the year portion for 1962 Pans and 1962 Servis.

Via my PM you will see Harley used at least two types of 6 for 1963 Pan SNs. The back was vertical in the sequence portion but in the decade position the back was slanted toward the right. And this also applied to 1963 Servi-Cars. I have not seen a round-back 6/9 used in any portion of a factory-stamped SN for a 63 Pan or 63 Servi.

Two photos I have suggest it is possible that some 1965 Panheads also had the decade 6 applied in the same fashion as the decade 6 for 1963, with the back slanted toward the right. I cannot find any real fault with either of the two 1965 examples so at this stage I would be inclined to think they may be exceptions.

A straight-back 6/9 appears in the year portion and sequence portion for most generator Shovelheads but a couple of round 6s have shown up in the year portion of what appear to be authentic 1967 Shovel factory stampings. I cannot find anything wrong with them yet so they may be exceptions.

The two photos below show the unusual straight-back 6/9 which only seems to apply to 1969 and only in the year portion. Any 6/9 in the sequence portion for 1969 Shovels and Servis would be the more common type of straight-back.

Image Image

The even-odd code was used for 1960–69 models. However, in his 37–64 book on page 8 Palmer only provided examples of how the code is applied to SNs with four sequence characters and his explanation does not work with certain SNs using five sequence characters. It appears an attempt to fix this was incorporated into the 32–52 book but it failed, with the extra example of SN 10002 being contradicted by the book’s own text. But via my PM you will find a proper explanation of how the code works when five sequence characters are present.

There are at least two reasons for exercising caution when viewing case numbers on the VAM site:
1. In some instances there is no information to indicate which examples are factory and which ones are not.
2. The description accompanying some photos is inaccurate—for example, on the first page you will see some blue UL crankcases and the SN is said to begin with 36. But in fact it is 37. The second problem is that the third sequence character is given as 6 when really it is 8. How do I know? Because the SN was discussed on CAI in December 2009 due to confusion about that third sequence character so I contacted the seller at that time and he provided clarification.
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#6

Post by 1962FLH »

The Motor factory sold replacement cases to dealerships and still does; the difference is they come stamped now. Until the 70s the replacement cases were stamped at the dealership by the wrench in the back. In many Dealerships they only had and one set of stamps and used for all years of replacement cases and after a night out on the town they did not always look strait or exactly the same as before. If you suspect the stamps are different then you just may have Motor Factory replacement cases, not a bad thing to have as the aluminum alloys improved over the years.
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#7

Post by RUBONE »

Thanks Eric!
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#8

Post by tschukojr »

thanks eric, and everyone else, another great lesson for me, and by viewing the photos on V.A.M. is what got me really wondering, then all the difference's in the 60's ecspecially the slanted 6---again thanks----------tony schuko
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Re: lesson on 1960 era pan case numbers

#9

Post by Speeding Big Twin »

Cheers, Tony. When I mentioned the 1942 XA earlier on I should have pointed out that it seems to have had a round-back 6/9 in its SN even though other Harleys used a straight-back 6/9 at that time. Palmer mentions in both his books that the 42XA had a round 6/9 and one of my XA photos appears to confirm this.

And you’ll also find that SNs of some Harley racing bikes were often done with different stamps to the ones used for production models.

Something else I stated earlier was the following: ‘I do not know exactly when the open 4 was introduced for other Harleys but it appears in SNs for the E-series, G-series, U-series and W-series as early as 1943 models ...’ Obviously I should have included the F-series in that list.
Eric
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