| Comments |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Next are letters for BT lower triple clamps and model years they may correspond to and for now I’m just staying with 1962–85. I haven’t researched all BT lower triple clamps for this period so if anyone wants to add photos of other types and the position of the ID numbers then please do so. Again there may be exceptions so the lists should be used as guides only. Apparently the letters I, O and Q were skipped.
1962: A
1963: A and B
1964: B, C and D
1965: C and D
1966: D, E, F and G
1967: D, E, F and G
1968: H, J, K and L
1969: J, K and L
1970: K, L and M
1971: M, N, P and R
1972: P, R, S, T and U
1973: U, V, W, Y and Z. And X?
As of 1974 models, double letters began to appear and they were usually followed by four numbers. I’m not sure what the second letter was for each year but I’ll post some double-letter examples below.
1974: A and another letter
1975: A and another letter
1976: A (or B or C) and another letter
1977: A (or B or C) and another letter
1978: B (or C) and another letter
1979: B (or D or F) and another letter
1980: B (or D or E or F) and another letter
1981: E and another letter
1982: F and another letter
1983: F and another letter
1984: F and another letter
1985: G and another letter
NB: it may also be that some, not all, 1979–1980 model BT lower triple clamps had only one letter.
On 62–68 BT lower triple clamps I’ve only seen the ID stamped outside the left fork stop. As indicated above the first letter used was A but this lower clamp looks like it has B (B9+++) so it may be a 63–64 model. Not the best picture but at least it shows the ID location. In this example the ID heads uphill but sometimes it runs downhill.
B9+++.jpg
For BT triple clamps the next location for additional ID was on top of the padlock plate and this one has K5+++.
Lower triple clamp.jpg
K5+++.jpg
The plate was introduced with 1969 models but it’s unclear if the change in ID position occurred immediately (early-69). I haven’t seen any 69 Shovel lower clamps with ID outside the left fork stop but if anyone has then please let me know.
Next is U2+++ and apparently U indicates 72–73.
Eric
U2+++.jpg |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Double letters AH (AH8+++) although upside down. This was said to be a 75 model which is consistent with the info above but A accompanied by another letter could also indicate 1974 and 1976–77.
AH8+++.jpg
Also upside down is FN6+++.
Eric
FN6+++.jpg |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Narrow triple clamps: on this one the letter looks like P (P3+++) so it may be from a 71 or 72 FX Super Glide. ID points uphill on the R-H fork stop.
Narrow triple clamp.jpg
Next is S3+++ and it too runs uphill. The bike is a 72 FX and S is one of five letters associated with that model year.
S3+++.JPG
The above narrow clamps having a single letter is consistent with the format also used on Electra Glide lower clamps at that time (71–72).
But while some bikes apparently first went to double letters as of 1974 models, Super Glide lower clamps I know of on a 75 and a 78 only have one letter. It’s on the R-H fork stop which seems to be the normal position. The ID runs downhill but that’s okay and the characters appear consistent with factory types. The 75 has H (H7+++) and the 78 has F (F1+++) but on other previous models those letters indicated 68 and 66–67 respectively.
Eric |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Panhead trans cases had additional ID on the front for 62–65. For Shovel trans cases the ID was on the front for 66 through about mid/late-79 but from then through about 84/85 at least two more locations were used on the types of cases I’ve looked at thus far. In the single-letter period the letters I, O and Q seem to have been omitted. In the double-letter era, I and Q appear to have been skipped but a question remains regarding the letter O, and what type of character represented it, at certain times.
NB: as with the letters for frames and lower triple clamps, there may be exceptions to this list for trans case ID so it should be used as a guide only.
1962: A
1963: A and B
1964: B, C and D
1965: B, C and D
1966: C, D, E, F and G
1967: D and E
1968: E
1969: E and F
1970: F and G
1971: G and H
1972: H, J and K
1973: K and L
1974: L, M and N
1975: N, P and R
1976: R, T, U and V
1977: V, W and X
1978: Y and Z. And maybe AA for late-78.
1979: AA, BB, BC and BD. And BF?
1980: BF, BG, BH, BJ and BK
1981: BL and BM. And BN?
1982: BR?
1983: BT
1984: BV
There was also BX but the date code is unclear in the photo I have so I’m not sure if the case was 84 or 85.
On the front of BT trans cases the additional ID was stamped just below where the lid attaches. The earliest case I know of to have this form of ID was cast in Jan 1960 and it has the letter A but another case from that month has nothing. Same thing happened with two cases I know of cast in Oct that year. One case I know of cast in Aug 1960 has A but I used the Jan 1961 case below as an example because its ID letter is clearer.
Eric
A2+++.jpg
January 1961.jpg |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:08 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Next is J and apparently it was one of at least three letters used for 72 model BT trans cases.
J9++.jpg
NB: I don’t know how the factory assigned the letters but if J was on a BT frame and/or lower triple clamp it would normally indicate about 68–69.
Next is R suggesting a 75–76 trans case but if that letter was on a BT lower triple clamp it would usually indicate about 71–72.
Eric
R2+++.jpg |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:13 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Additional ID remained on the front through S, T, U, V, W, X, Y and Z. However, the thirteen Ys I’ve seen are all larger than their accompanying characters as per the next picture.
Y0+++.jpg
On most occasions the ID runs downhill but sometimes it heads in the opposite direction—for example, Z0+++.
Z0+++.jpg
The earliest double-letter combo I’ve seen on a Big Twin trans case is AA but this photo of BB (BB3+++) is better.
BB3+++.jpg
Other combos used on the front include BC and BD.
Eric |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:20 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Second position I’ve seen for additional ID is toward the rear, on the left side behind the lid. On this occasion the first letter is B and the second letter looks like F.
BF3+++.jpg
Another combo found in that position is BG.
BG7+++.jpg
But shortly thereafter the ID shifted to the back of the case and BH is the first I’ve seen there.
BH 1++.jpg
BN7+++
BN7+++.jpg
Other double-letter combos stamped low on the back of the case are BJ, BK, BL, BM, BR, BT, BV, BW and BX. Not always toward the left however and sometimes you’ll find the ID further to the right.
Eric |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:24 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Although there can be exceptions I imagine on most occasions the additional ID on a BT trans case will be consistent with the casting number and/or date code underneath. Below is a list of casting numbers and corresponding ID letters. (Others may be added later.) Remember in the single-letter period the letters I, O and Q seem to have been omitted and in the double-letter era, I and Q appear to have been skipped but a question remains regarding the letter O, and what type of character represented it, at certain times.
Also some cases with casting numbers have no date codes and some date codes are on cases with no casting numbers which is why this list may seem a bit out of step with some of the above info.
Eric
A: 121 35
B: 121 35, 34703 64 and 34703 65
C–V: 34703 65
W: 34703 65 and 34703 77
X and Y: 34703 77
Z: 34703 77 and 34709 78
AA: 34709 78
BC and BD: 34709 79
BF–BN: 34709 80
BR: 34709 82
BT: 34707 82
BV and BX: 34707 82A |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:27 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
When looking for this type of additional ID I mostly concentrate on BTs so I haven’t accumulated much for Sportsters but AFAIK the letters for their 1962–69 frames are the same as, or at least similar to, those applying to BTs. But I don’t know if any 1970 Sportster frames had additional ID. Anybody know?
Some Sportster frames have ID on the left side and some have it on the R-H side. This one has A7+++ on the left.
A7+++.jpg
Next frame has K4+++ on the R-H side.
Eric
K4+++.jpg |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:32 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
The only examples I have of additional ID on Sportster lower triple clamps are on the padlock plates. AFAIK, the letters for Sportster lower clamps are the same as, or at least similar to, those applying to BTs. This one is L5+++.
L5+++.jpg
T5+++
T5+++.jpg
Double letters AL (AL++++) upside down.
Eric
AL++++.jpg |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:35 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
As I mentioned earlier, in the beginning for Big Twins the ID was stamped on the frame, lower triple clamp and trans case and it consisted of one letter followed by either three or four numeric characters. Some bikes had the same letter on all three parts while others didn’t—for example, a certain 63FL had A on the trans while B was on the frame and lower triple clamp and in 2006 all the ID was confirmed as original by Peter Simet at H-D Customer Service. Peter also indicated to the owner that the additional ID numbering began in the 1962 model year.
In 2013 the owner of a 64FLH had his additional ID confirmed as original by H-D and the letter was the same on all three parts. However, even though they all started with B the three ID numbers did not match each other overall and that seems to have been normal procedure on most (all?) occasions.
Questions and/or comments welcome regarding any of my posts.
Eric |
| Bone Head, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:53 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
| Great post; thank you! This comes at an opportune time as a friend of mine brought a HD narrow glide front end at a swapmeet and has wondered just when and what about it. If I get a chance to look at it I'll refer back to your posts. Again, thank you! |
| George Greer, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Eric.........
Thanks, you guys commitment never ceases to impress me.
George |
| awander, Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
| Thanks, Eric! |
| RUBONE, Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:12 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
| Thank you Eric for your perseverance and dedication to this hobby!! |
| Raytag, Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:24 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
This is awesome
Ray |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:59 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Cheers everyone. I’ve been working on a few other subjects too but it’s hard to find time to finish things.
Bone Head, please let me know if you can’t identify that narrow glide from my posts above because for lower triple clamps I also have ID letters for 1986 through 2007.
Eric |
| CC Rider, Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
| Great information! Now I need to start looking for my component numbers! |
| bigbox, Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:47 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
| great post Eric, thanks |
| Doc37W, Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:58 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
| Eric, In regards to the early frame numbers, I have seen two original, VERY LATE '61 panheads with the 'snake eyes' punch marks and the frame numbers starting with A. Both were unmolested, with original owners. In the course of conversations with both, they said they had never had the frame replaced for any reason. I have owned a '61 also, But it was in the 5000 range, the frame was stamped 1 A on the top motor mount, right side (Jan. '61) & it didn't have the security frame number. Doc |
| Bone Head, Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:02 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Speeding Big Twin wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:59 am
Cheers everyone. I’ve been working on a few other subjects too but it’s hard to find time to finish things.
Bone Head, please let me know if you can’t identify that narrow glide from my posts above because for lower triple clamps I also have ID letters for 1986 through 2007.
Eric
No joy for him, you and me. Aftermarket front end. No numbers anywhere. |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Thanks Bone Head.
Thanks Doc. According to Pete Simet the additional ID began in the 62 model year but perhaps he was referring to the official introduction and didn’t let on that a few very late 61s were the first to receive that ID? Do you know if those two 61s had additional ID on the lower triple clamp and trans case?
In my first post I mentioned that at least one publication said 1961. It was a guide to motorcycle identification written by Lee S Cole. He referred to the additional ID as supplemental numbers and he said it began in 61. But his info contains a lot of errors and some are the same as those found in the CHP booklet—for example, he wrongly says the E-O code started in 62. Cole also indicates the Knucklehead was first made for 1927, the Hydro (yep, Hydro) Glide was first made for 1948 and the Duo-Glide was last made for 1965. The list of mistakes goes on. In other words his guide has very little credibility.
But those two very late 61s are interesting so I’ll make a note of them and keep an eye out for others.
Eric |
| Bone Head, Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Speeding Big Twin wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:03 pm
...But his info contains a lot of errors and some are the same as those found in the CHP booklet—for example, he wrongly says the E-O code started in 62. Cole also indicates the Knucklehead was first made for 1927, the Hydro (yep, Hydro) Glide was first made for 1948 and the Duo-Glide was last made for 1965. The list of mistakes goes on. In other words his guide has very little credibility.
Eric
CHP? California Highway Patrol? If so, wonder how many legitimate bikes were impounded because of erroneous information? |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:32 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
The California Highway Patrol booklet contains a lot of errors including when the E-O code started and finished. It said model year 1962 was the beginning of the code and that it continued to the present. Given the year the booklet is said to have been printed, and given some of its references to the early-70s, it seems the present at that time may have meant approximately 1971. But the booklet is wrong for both ends of the E-O code because it started with 1960 models and ended with 1969 models. I’ve never seen any evidence that it was used for 1970-later.
Also getting the start year wrong for the E-O code was a Connecticut police document dated July 1981. But they knew the proper end year was 1969. Mr Cole’s guide was copyrighted in 1986 and he too got the start year wrong but he got the end year correct.
Eric |
| glasorsa, Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:46 pm Post subject: informazioni sul mio Pan '50 e identificazione VIN |
He, I'm an Italian biker and I own a 1950 Hydra-Glide mod. E - 61 inch. low
compression.
I know this is a very rare model and I would like some of you experts to
tell me more about this model which I know was only in production from
1948-1951.
My VIN is : 50E10186 - apart from the model (E) ed the year (1950) how is reading exactly the rest of numbers ?
I thank everyone for the hospitality
Giovanni |
| RUBONE, Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Hello Giovanni,
The rest of your number is only the sequence in production that it was made. Since H-D normally started their numbers at 1001 your bike would be the 9186th built during the 1950 model year, very late in the production. The number does not tell anything else about the bike, only the original order form would tell if it was ordered with any special features. The "E" was uncommon in the US and most were export only due to the poor fuel quality available in Europe at the time. Everything about your bike would be the same as an EL except the compression ratio. Without the original order form or a sales receipt it is impossible to say what equipment group it could have come with or if it was equipped for a sidecar.
Robbie |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:44 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
Giovanni, Panhead Models E and ES were made for 1948–50 and originally your engine could have been either of them. Both models were medium compression but the ES had sidecar gearing as shown on part of the 1950 order blank below. However, the S was usually only on the paperwork and normally it wasn't stamped on the engine.
Do you know if the transmission is original to the bike? If the trans is original, is it 4-speed, 3-speed or 3-speed with reverse?
For 1950 Panheads (E, ES, EL, F, FS, FL) the serial numbers were grouped together. For 1950, serial numbers began at 1000 and went beyond 11300 although I doubt they reached 12000.
Obviously your serial number follows the normal format and is within the accepted production range but what do the characters look like? Are they consistent with factory stamping for a 1950 Pan? If you’re not sure then you could post a photo.
What are the crankcase production numbers? If you’re not familiar with them you may find them under each case near the outer edges and somewhat toward the front. These are also known as belly numbers, line-bore numbers and confidential numbers. Even if you have a crankcase guard the numbers should be visible. Check the left case first to get an idea of their location. For 1950 Panheads code numbers 3 and 1 were used at the start of these numbers but if it’s a later-50 model then I’d expect to find code number 1. For example, 150-1234(5). Let us know what you find. Photos would help.
Is anything stamped on top of the cases near the rear engine mounting bolts? You shouldn’t find anything there if everything else is authentic but please check anyway. Photo? Thanks.
Eric
1950.jpg |
| glasorsa, Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: H-D componente originale aggiuntivo che identifica i numeri |
Many thanks to Speeding Big Twin and Rubone for their attention.
As soon as possible I will send you details photos on numbers.
Now as you know we are in quarantine and my Pan is still at the mechanic's in a country close to mine, because I was having a Kit electric start wiped out.
Meanwhile, I can tell you that I purchased my Pan from Boston MA in 2011 but from the documents sent to me there is no order form.
If I understand correctly my model E corresponds to an EL except for being low compression (61 inch.)
In the meantime, I wish send you a photo of my pan but i dont Know as attaching to this post
Thanks again, I would love to meet you.
A hug from Southern Italy
Hello
GLS |
| Speeding Big Twin, Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:27 am Post subject: Re: H-D additional original component identifying numbers |
You're welcome. Yes the only difference between E and EL models is compression. As Robbie mentioned, without the original order form or a sales receipt it is impossible to say what equipment your bike would have come with. Unfortunately the factory no longer has that info available for machines going back that far. I haven’t got copies of any invoices for 1950 Pans but here’s one for a 49EL to give you an idea.
Eric
49 EL invoice.jpg |
