Going from hydraulics to solids

[1964FLDUO]

I was told I should change from the stock hydraulic lifters to solids when running a larger than stock cam on my Pan, this is not the case with most of the car engines I have worked on, so it seems the hydraulics would work fine with the larger cam in my motor. Stock is .412 and I am going to run an Andrews J which has .425 lift. Is there any merit to this?.

[Huck]

I have solid lifters on my 58 because that’s the way it came to me, I don’t mind the extra maintenance so they will stay where they are.
I do understand from the S&S instructions on solids that the lifter block oil galleys need to be plugged to keep oil from running up the push rod tubes. I’m going to check shortly to see if mine are plugged. I’d be happier with a little more oil pressure. If there is a break off point on “this cam needs solids” I don’t know anything bout that. I ran a solid lift cam in poncho 455 in another life, I didn’t mind keeping those adjusted either. Anyway thought the lifter block info might help.

[PanPal]

Hydraulics will work fine with a Andrews J grind. They may not work with the Andrews A grind.

[Cotten]

Huck!

Inspite of S&S's theory,
plugging the galleries was proven unnecessary by thousands of machines running "slugs" for a couple of decades before they discovered a problem.

The instant a hydraulic unit is pumped up, it is essentially a "solid" as far as oil flow is concerned.

Why change anything?

And what if one decides to go back to hydraulics?
A simple swap becomes a chore.

....Cotten

[PanPal]

Inspite of S&S's theory,
plugging the galleries was proven unnecessary by thousands of machines running "slugs" for a couple of decades before they discovered a problem.

I am curious what this means. Is the slug that you refer to the case modification S&S explains for installing an S&S oil pump? Drilling the extra hole on the pump face and installing the set screw through the case cover face hole. If this is the mod proven unnecessary what was the problem descovered. I know you can take out the set screw and plug the hole that was drilled to go back. But I did this mod on one of my Pans and want to know what may go wrong.

Doh.... just reread what Huck wrote and hope this is a different mod than I did. So any info good or bad on the mod I did would be nice.

[Cotten]

PanPal!

"Slugs" is an old term for "solids", perhaps only in the Midwest.
Since hydraulics rob a minor bit of valvetrain response,
or would prevent use of a wildcat cam,
racers would weld them solid,
or cut their own from scratch.

The S&S pump is a different matter.

...Cotten

[Bigincher]

Reading with much interest.....

I'm going to risk it and venture the guess that "slugs" are original hydraulic pushrods that have been braized up, esentially making them 'solids'. (If that is wrong, I do apologize...)

I have a set of those that were inside my 1941 panhead (or is it a '59 knuck...?!) when I bought it in 1974. I replaced them a few years later with... Sifton? solid pushrods when I installed a Sifton 412 cam (virtually a Victory cam...).


Regards...


(OOOPs..! Sorry, I missed Cotten's post.)

[Hog54]

I have running a sifton cam with my hydraulics that has what I think is a .470 or .485 lift for 16 years.Its the biggest cam you can run with hydraulics.

[Bigincher]

I am wondering if "hydraulic lifters" and "hydraulic pushrods" can be considered equal in this discussion...?

[Hog54]

Well all I know from what I read that the pushrods were a big no-no.

[RUBONE]

Be aware that lift alone is not an issue for hydraulic lifters, but the profile of the opening and closing ramps are! Most aftermarket cam designers will tell you right up front which will work and which will not. The biggest issue is that with certain ramp shapes the valve closes so quickly that the cam and lifter bang together causing the hydraulic unit to bleed down and hammer. As long as the cam you are using is designated FOR hydraulics there is no issue!
Robbie

[Huck]

Hey Cotton,

What you said makes sense, but why do you reckon S&S wrote the procedure as they did.? I don’t know shit, this is my first Pan. Thinking back on my past I’m trying to keep the carnage on this motor to a minimum. Last thing I want to do is come off like a smart ass around here. I think I’ve probably read everything on this site regarding Pans & am certainly thankful its here.
Instruction Sheet #51-1035
4. 1953-'65 Panhead Solid Lifter Conversion Kit.
(Part #93-5081, #93-5082, #93-5083, #93-5084,
#93-5058, and #93-5028.)
NOTE – These kits are intended for converting 1953-'65 stock
style hydraulic lifters to adjustable solid lifters.
NOTE – Panheads, 1953 & later, and Shovelheads with solid
lifters, should have tappet block hydraulic lifter oil feed holes
plugged to prevent excess oil escaping above lifters and
filling pushrod tubes, causing potential oil leaks. Thread 8-32
tap into oil feed passage from gasket surface of tappet block
until tap end just starts to enter lifter bore. Plug hole with an
8-32 x 3/16" set screw. Repeat for other tappet block.

[MartinsFLH]

I, nor anyone I personally know ever bothered plugging the oil feed when using solids (on Shovels as S&S says) and never suffered any leaks and suchlike.

[Cotten]

Folks,

First,
Robbie refers to the crux of the biscuit: "Performance" cams were traditionally ground with ramps to take advantage of a solid valve train.
Optimized cams for hydraulics are relatively modern.
An example of the learning curve is the Andrews A grind, which might work if you have a later high-volume pump, or it may not and your hydraulics will hammer like hell when at a warm idle.

And Huck!
S&S has published some really, really bizarre notions that defy common sense, such as trimming the top of the female rod to equal the male (There is no place in the balancing equation to demand it, and the notion that the top half of a heavier rod should equal the top half of a lighter rod is pandering to the ignorant.)

S&S has been elevated to such regal status that nobody speaks up when the emperor has no clothes.

....Cotten

[FlatHeadSix]

I am wondering if "hydraulic lifters" and "hydraulic pushrods" can be considered equal in this discussion...?

No sir, not equal, not even close. The "oil can" hydraulic pushrods sat on top of solid lifters, the "oil can" or the hydraulic part of it was at the top of the pushrod. They were a mistake to begin with, bad engineering, the factory quit using them as soon as they all began to fail in service. The new improved system uses the true hydraulic lifters we still have in all H-D valve trains to this day.

The "fix" for any of the engines that were originally equipped with hydraulic pushrods is to simply pull them out, throw them in the junk drawer, and put a set of solid pushrods on top of the ORIGINAL solid lifters. Works like a charm, no more problems. The only issue is whether you use aluminum or steel solid pushrods, but that's a whole nuther debate.

been there, done that.

mike