Cylinder base gasket replacement question

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TimmyV
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Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#1

Post by TimmyV »

I'm preparing to replace the cylinder base gaskets on my '61 FLH for the first time ( for me). I put new head gaskets on last year & the base gaskets were fine at the time, so I left them alone. However that was over 5000 miles ago & now the front cylinder has developed a nagging leak. Not a gusher or anything, just enough to keep things a mess... Bike's not burning any oil, just leaking, so I'm just doing a complete top end gasket job, like I should have done to begin with.

I have the 59-69 HD Service manual & the job seems pretty straightforward when reading about it in the manual, but I have questions just the same.

When I did the heads before, I used anti sieze on the face of the bolt head, nothing on the threads. Is this the preferred method ?

If I should use some anti sieze on the threads, then I would also wonder if I should apply some to the threads for the cylinder base stud nuts ?

I am wondering if I will have to remove the timer to access the front right cylinder base nut ?

I recently acquired one of those curved obstruction wrenches on fleabay as this appears to be the required tool for the cylinder base nuts, and possibly the answer to getting behind the timer ? The wrench hasn't arrived yet or I wouldn't waste anyone's time with the question, I'd just go to the garage & see for myself.

I like to use a torque wrench when I can & was hoping to possibly use this wrench at ninety degrees in conjunction with the torque wrench. With the angles of this wrench I'm wanting to make certain where you measure ninety degrees ? ( I assume from the "center" section of the the wrench )

* I did a search on this topic & found some very useful information in the knowledge base on the subject. However, the information that Cotton posted appears to refer to a picture that he posted along with the information, but danged if I can it ? I realize that the thread was posted almost 7 years ago, but I am hoping someone could please point me in the right direction to be able to view this picture ? An ol' country boy like me needs all the visual aids he can get. :D

viewtopic.php?f=86&t=2169

Post by Cotten on Jun 15, 2004, 1:08pm


All should remember that when using an extension to a torquewrench, the angle from the fastener to the torquehead to your hand should be 90 degrees tho maintain the same measured force.
(The photo looks like less, but it is slop in the socket, plus camera perspective.)
An extention that lengthens a torquewrench multiplies the poundage; one that shortens it divides the poundage.

Some inaccuracy from flex of home-made extentions exists, but it is negligable on a 35 to 40 ft/lb torque.
When torqueing heads in increments to 65, it becomes more of a concern, but a variance of a couple of pounds from spec is not as critical as getting them all even.
Most basenuts can be reached by using a common "obstruction" wrench for an extention. This is a double box-ended (9/16" by 5/8") C-shaped wrench available from many suppliers. The 9/16" end will fit directly upon many cheap double-drive torsion wrenches, allowing the 5/8" end to be used at four different arrangements at 90 degrees.
Then with a common 5/8" Allen socket for an adapter, the 9/16" end can be used for headbolts.
The versatility of four extention arrangements, plus the dual directional capability of torsion wrenches make them an absolute necessity for torqueing while in the chassis.

Note: All fasteners should be lubricated (I prefer an anti-seize compound), and the draw upon the wrench should be slow and smooth, allowing the fastener to 'creep' as it is held at each torque increment.
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#2

Post by Dave_R »

Well TimmyV,

I'll probably get "blasted" for this, but I had a similar situation just last month.

It would weep a bit, enough to pool around the lifter block after a short ride. Also, the other side would leak a little as well. I had torqued the nuts to spec, so.....

Since I did not want to tear it apart, I actually did an additional 1/8 of a turn on all base nuts.

So far, no leak!

Like you said, as long as they are all even.
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#3

Post by Cotten »

Timmy!
Although I cannot remember if this was the original photo,..
Here are two that I use with a torsion wrench to reach the pesky front right cylinder base nut.
CYLWRNCH.jpg
The whole point is that one cannot guestimate the fastener torque accurately without a friendly combination of wrenches.

Obviously, these cannot be found on a hardware store wall, or in a catalog!
They took time and attention to fabricate, but they have paid for themselves dozens of times over.
(The top is a saddlebag version).

Got a torch or TIG?

...Cotten
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#4

Post by DuoGlide62 »

I had the same problem. Last month I replaced the base gasket with a Jim's gasket. Working great so far.
new gasket ring compressor.jpg
ring compressor.jpg
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#5

Post by Bosheff »

No Anti-Sieze on the threads as it will allow for a false torque reading I've been told. A light coating of fine oil is recommended by some so called authorities. Myself, I use the fine oil method and have never had a problem. If the engine is out of the frame and the generator is removed you may be able to reach the stud with a box end wrench, but unless you have a tool similar to what Cotton posted, you probably won't be able to properly reach the specified torque. Evenly torqued fasteners are preferred to properly torqued fasteners (to factory specs) if you have no other choices....bosheff
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#6

Post by TimmyV »

I appreciate the information gentlemen. Yes, I have access to torches & welders so hopefully I can fabricate something along the lines of Cotton's pix. Last time I did the head gaskets, I used a dab of oil on the threads along with anti sieze on the face of the bolthead, as Bosheff mentioned. Still waiting on all the parts & tools to arrive so I've got time yet. Besides, I'm still riding the old girl & long as I keep her full of oil I figure there's no harm done, just makes a mess, that's all.
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#7

Post by Cotten »

I use antiseize on headbolts!

If one lube allows a slightly different real torque than another, it is insignificant.
The critical aspect is that the torque is equal among the fasteners.

....Cotten
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#8

Post by c.o. »

Great thread!! It saved me from asking the questions!!!
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#9

Post by mbskeam »

I made these from a 9/16-5/8 box end combo wrench. used a couple of busted 3/8 drive sockets.
one for the heads and the other for the cyl
panengine047.jpg
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#10

Post by TimmyV »

I fashioned a wrench much like what Cotton posted (thank you sir) & was able to tear the top end down on my motorcycle yesterday without removing the timer. My plan was to remove the wrist pins, leaving the pistons in their bores as the top end only has < 6000 miles on it. However, after removing the circlip I could not get the wrist pin to come out of the piston easily, so I went ahead & pulled the cylinders off the pistons. ( Pin would move but appeared to hang on circlip groove.) Pistons, rings & cylinders look good & service manual says to use #150 emery cloth to achieve 45* crosshatch & install new rings.

What sort of end gap should I look for ? These are +.020 cast pistons, if that matters.

Is it really necessary to re-ring with the small amount of mileage on these rings ? Stupid question maybe & if re-ring is the answer then that's what I'll do.

Thanks for any help y'all might be able to offer. Again I apologize for the stupid rookie questions. Just trying to do the job correctly the first time.
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#11

Post by Cotten »

TimmyV wrote: Pistons, rings & cylinders look good & service manual says to use #150 emery cloth to achieve 45* crosshatch & install new rings.

What sort of end gap should I look for ? These are +.020 cast pistons, if that matters.

Is it really necessary to re-ring with the small amount of mileage on these rings ? Stupid question maybe & if re-ring is the answer then that's what I'll do.
Timmy!

The emery trick is a long-outdated barnyard practice, and to be avoided with modern rings, and perhaps your used rings as well. (I am not sure I would call 5000 miles "low mileage".)

If there is still an apparent cross-hatch showing, Scotch-Brite is as course as any hand-applied abrasive need be.
If the cross-hatch is mostly worn away, I suggest having it swiped a few times with a fine positive-stone hone, and then followed with the Scotch-Brite (or a plateau brush).

Modern cross-hatch is sixty degrees, unless they have changed it again.

The rings should still have their original finish on their edges to be re-used.
The gap should be to book spec for fresh rings, but beware that even Hastings is prone to giving them "idiot clearance" right out of the box.

More when my server allows,

....Cotten
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#12

Post by Bosheff »

If yer talkin bout ring end gap, a good rule of thumb is .004" end gap per 1" of bore. Thus for a 4" bore, .016" is a good ball-park figure for a cast piston. This is a general spec. so consult piston manufacturer for the real deal for yer application....bosheff
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#13

Post by Hog54 »

mbskeam wrote:I made these from a 9/16-5/8 box end combo wrench. used a couple of busted 3/8 drive sockets.
one for the heads and the other for the cyl

Image


You can buy those from snap-on like I did.
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#14

Post by Cotten »

Hog54 wrote:You can buy those from snap-on like I did.
Hog54!

I've got a Snap-On too.

But it still will not reach the front right base nut without removing the timer.

....Cotten
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Re: Cylinder base gasket replacement question

#15

Post by mbskeam »

You can buy those from snap-on like I did.
ImageImageImageImage

sighhhhhh.... nevermind
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