Mystery Top End Oiling

[rby1234]

Any help / ideas would be greatly appreciated regarding this dilemma:
A couple of years ago I bought a wishbone frame panhead as something to tinker with. After replacing one of the pushrods and rebuilding the carburetor twice, I rode the bike off and on for about 500 - 700 miles with no problems (other than oil leaks). Last time I rode it, I blew a head gasket and decided to replace the head gaskets and cylinder base gaskets (since one was leaking oil). In the middle of putting this conglomerate of parts back together, I noticed the following:

(1) There are no oil feed or oil return holes on the top of my Delkron cases. Delkron tentatively identified these as 1955 - 1969 cases.
(2) My 74 ci (I measured them) cylinders have no markings but they are "generic" to all types of top end oiling systems. They have a oil feed hole on the right side and a oil return on the left side of the cylinder. They also have the "other" return (a 1/4" horizontal hole inside the cylinder).
(3) My STD heads have the oil feed and oil return holes to match up with the cylinders. These heads also have rocker arms with oil holes where the pushrod sets up into.
(4) This bike has no external oil lines to the heads.
(5) This bike has a shovelhead oil pump which accepts three hoses, the vent line, return line and the input line.
(6) This bike has been running with with solid lifters and solid adjustable pushrods (not hollow).

When I disassembled the bike, the heads appeared adequately oiled and I never heard any load tapping while the bike was running Here's my questions:
(1) Is it possible that the pushrod tubes served as a low pressure oil highway and lubricated the top end?
(2) Can I get away with just replacing the pushrods with hollow pushrods, or
(3) Do I have to have someone drill my cases into the tappets and establish feed lines which match up with the cylinders (if possible)?
(4) Any other thoughts or fixes?
Thank so much for your help, in advance...

[58flh]

The oil is fed from pump to pinion gear /& from there it goes to the crank-pin,& is also fed thru a hole in the cyl. for top-end.It is also drained by the opposite hole from the head & down the cyl. again & is let into the crankcase.Also oil is returned by gravity thru the P-rod tubes & that oils the tappets & eventually into the gearcase.Oil is also retrieved by vacuum or scavenged from case for chain-oiler.Also there are seals in the left case where crankcase pressure is nisting thru & aiding in primary chain oiling.--It sounds like your doing fine /as the mill would have seized itself from NO OIL in the first 50-miles or less!.If you wanted to you can tap into the top of cam-cover or where the pressure switch is located & run outside oilers to the heads!.--In my personal opinion, Pans have plenty of oil up top & using external pluming which in your case is not needed would /The plumbing would cover-up that Beautiful look of the mill itself!-However if outside oilers are done correctly /There hardly noticeable with the correct line.Steel/Braided line just don't cut it /Again that's just my personal opinion.Sounds like you have a nice Machine there!---Im sure others will help you also!--Good-Luck---RICHIE

[kitabel]

(1) Is it possible that the pushrod tubes served as a low pressure oil highway and lubricated the top end?
No
(2) Can I get away with just replacing the pushrods with hollow pushrods,
No

You have no oil to the rockers, and if you don't fix it quickly you're going to be replacing a lot of parts.

[58flh]

1234----You had mentioned that the STD heads have the oil-feed & drain that match-up to the cyl.--When you took apart everything you mentioned there was adequate oil being supplied up top.I know STD heads can be had with outside oilers or not.That being said Did you pull a rocker top half off?? & was there oil in the grooves??-Or did you see discoloration like it was running hot in the bering halves?-I have installed STD heads in the past & olny 1 was done with outside oilers ,I think it was a 1964.They came from the factory set-up for outside oilers.Im just wondering why/if feed holes match up the Rockers should be getting plenty of oil.Also in 700 miles there should be a sign of under-oiling & heat./Then again its not hard to run outside feed-lines to the heads!/If you do its not hurting but helping anyway.But check one of the heads out & pull both arms out for bering half inspection.---Respectfully---Richie

[rby1234]

58flh, my STD heads do not have any inlets for external oil lines. I didn't notice if there was oil specifically between the grooves, but when I stored the nylon pads in the pan covers, a good puddle of oil collected (in a day or so). The bearing halfs and the rockers looked and smelled fine; no discoloration or signs of burnt oil (and they were still oily even after sitting for quite some time). Being that I had no history on this bike (owner passed) and it wasn't running when I bought it, it is very possible that whoever assembled this wasn't aware of the lack of lubrication to the heads and soaked the nylon pads (under the pans) thinking that was all that was needed. I think I was just lucky I didn't do more damage to the bike. This has gotten a bit over my level of "so-called expertise" and it will most likely be going to a shop who works on the older stuff. I'm hoping these Delkron cases can be "cross drilled" from the tappets and two oil feed holes be made in the base gasket area. The only thing left I'm waiting to hear from is S&S technical service. Apparently they made some kind of hollow push rod conversion kits which had holes in the rockers (which came with the kit) where the push rod contacted the rocker. I'm hoping there is an outside chance that's what I have in the rockers and special S&S pushrod could be used (probably very wishful thinking).

[58flh]

1234---Sorry for the wrong info!--I should of re-read it before my answer!.I thought you said it had the feeds & drains.In any case As Kitabel put it ,there was no supply to the arms!-You can tap into the pumps oil-pressure idiot lite & run the feeds to the heads from there.Or You can Feed from the top of the cam-cover also if you want the pressure-unit.Im sure the shop you bring it to will check for bering-halves wear,after you tell them what you posted here.Again My apologies!---Respectfully---Richie

[fourthgear]

Sounds like the Delkron cases were made for overhead oiling system .
You may not like the looks , but outside oiling system may be a less expensive way of oiling the upper end . Still needs some kind of oil passage drilled in the Heads , but if I were to chose which I would rather drill to meet the oil passages , it would be the heads .
If the case has a tappet screen , you can oil feed from it , with the proper fittings , of course.
Drilling the cases out can be done ,if ,it is known where to drill or bore the passages in those cases. I would want to know for sure where they are at.

[58flh]

Fourthgear--Thats what confused me!--I know you can get STD heads with o-ring,shovel-intake-drilled for inside feed & outside feed.You can get them with both also.Its been awhile since I worked with a Dlkron bottom--But 750-miles those rockers would have been TOAST!.Yet the top was puddled-up & no smell-(thats the give-away).Also rockers worked.They had to be getting oil,in my personal opinion.I have seen BROWN innards from a shortster more then I feel like talking about!-If its not getting oil The arms,again in my opinion wouldnt move SMOOTHLY-If at all!,They be dry right.I bet the case was drilled for feed when somebody put her together.It had Jugs drilled correctly.Oh well the best thing is nothing got siezed-up.We will see what his motor guy has to say,That will be the final!--Unless 1234 can post pics of the right case with top-end apart also.----Respectfully--Richie

[rby1234]

Gents, here are the photos...

1 Block.JPG

Please note that the small hole drilled on the ride side of the front cylinder is outside of the base gasket. It is also plugged and doesn't go anywhere. Delkron thinks someone was drilling and looking for a oil channel. Otherwise, there are no oil feeds or returns on the right and left side of the cylinder bases (on the cases).

2 Cylinder.JPG

Top of cylinder shows right feed and left side return.

3 Cylinder.JPG

Bottom of cylinder shows the horizontal drain (return). as well.

4 Head.JPG

STD head showing bottom of rocker. There is a stub on the other side where a hole could be drilled and tapped if external lines were to be run.

photo.JPG

All put together and previously running!

Interesting enough, Vulcan Engineering (Motorway) makes a hydraulic lifter kit ($450) to change the top end oiling from any panhead to an Evo. When asking the mfg why I just can't do this, his reply was "not the way to go". He said either drill the heads + run external lines or drill the casing (but be very careful). I really don't want the external lines and will let the mechanic know so. I won't be able to bring this down to the shop until the end of next week. At this point I am out of ideas and will defer to this shovelhead/panhead mechanic who owns his own little shop. I don't know how any oil got up to the heads. Perhaps I put on less than 500 miles, but it was over at least 12-14 months with short (<25 mile) every other weekend rides.

[58flh]

Well that explains alot,anyone for some jug-fishing? --Use the outside oilers,Its the way to go!,By the way Nice stuff ya got there!---Richie

[Panacea]

RB, could you post a pic looking at the carb side of the heads? that's where the outside oilers are plumbed in, there may be a flat spot there where you could tap in to the oil passage with outside lines

[kitabel]

The next step is to pull the cam cover and verify that:
1. there is an internal passage from the pinion shaft up to the face of the gasket at 12 o'clock
2. there is a matching horizontal hole in the right case, which leads to the supply holes. If it's there, you may hit it by just drilling down to match an original case. If not - surgery.

[nmaineron]

I did that with a 66 right case,I want to run panheads on them and have asked numerous times how to accomplish this and got no feedback other than it can't be done...It is a simple job if you take your time and catch the route of the internal passage.I drilled the plug out of the front and ran a piece of welding wire down the passage and did the same for the hole for the lifter blocks and got a good angle for the drilling of the rear cylinder.I used an 1/8" drill....

[rby1234]

Good Stuff, thanks! I haven't had a chance to get you a photo of the other side of the heads, but I can tell you there is a flat, dime-sized "nipple" where the hole would have been (could be) drilled. I don't want to run external lines because of the look and the very tight fit I have with everything. Being that this is a collection of parts, some of these parts have little to no clearance! I will take the timing cover off when I get a chance, but this is going to the mechanic one week from tomorrow!

[Huck]

Check these pics out, It remains a mystery to me as to why the top end didn't lock. I bought the pile and tore it down I don't how long it was ran like this.