Panhead rocker gasket leak...questions...

[dilby]

All:

I have a goodly oil leak coming from the left front corner of the front head's rocker cover...on a freshly built Panhead motor (with ~150miles) with STD panheads (with Shovel-style exh and intake), steel repop rocker covers, and thick d-rings.

I tried to re-torque the cap screws in the leaky area to factory spec, but the leak is still occurring.

Now, I know from reading many posts that its best to remove rocker cover, paint the bottom lip with blue machinist's dye and sand down bottom of cover on a nice flat surface, then regasket and re-torque screws.

However, I have 2 problems and need some sage advice:

1) I may not be able to fully remove the rocker cover on the front head as this Panhead motor is "squished" nicely into a Knuck frame and the top cross tube sits fairly close to the top of the the front cover, leaving me with minimal clearance. Im thinking that I may not be able to fully remove the cover to do the sanding and replace gasket???

So, is it possible to just slightly lift the cover off the head and get a new gasket in there and simply re-torque screws??? Or is this simply putting a bandaid on a larger problem...that being a bent lip or a burr in the cover???


2) Also, I noticed that the front exhaust pipe has some oil on the inside of the exhaust tip. A buddy noticed it when riding behind me on the hiway as he saw puffs of blue smoke. I pulled over to check the pipe and with a finger swab on the inside of the pipe, the tip of my glove was slightly blackened with oil!!!!!

I pulled the spark plug and didnt see any signs of oil fouling on the plug (its a perfect tannish color), so I ruled out an over-oiling condition to the head or blowby past the rings(????)

So, is it possible that the oil leak as mentioned above in the front head rocker gasket is wicking into the exhaust port and possibly blowing out the pipe????? The leak does drip down into the exhaust area, but Im hard-pressed to think it can wick up the exhaust flange and into the head???? Or could this be possible??? My gut tells me its possible...lest Im missing something???

Im stumped here and need help on both items listed above.

Thanks in advance.

Dilby

[55FL]

Mine new rebuild startred doing the same thing. STD heads and repo covers. The problem turned out to be the new covers themselves. The hole @ the front lh corner is to close to the roll of the inner edge. Old stock covers have much more meat at the area.
Mine leaked even with the Accurate Eng gaskets. The rear head hasn't oozed at all.
The cure was distasteful. Several experiments with different gaskets and skim coating of gasket sealer.
I've since laid my hands on some stock covers and when I do the ext oiler/dual plug work they will go on.

John

[108]

dilby, The gasket area is so narrow it a wonder you can ever keep them from leaking ,especially with what I've read here about repo pans. But the bad leak together with the clean plug,oily pipe and smoke rang a bell with me! It sounds like the head might be flooding with oil because it's not draining for some reason and oil is running down the exhaust guide. ?!? In some cases you can tilt the engine to one side enough to get the pan off. Still a lot of work but better than removing the head.

[fourthgear]

Do you have good oil return to your oil tank ? If you can rule out a return oil and or a blockage problem , you may need to pull the head out if you don't have room . The front cover can some times be lifted enough to finagle a gasket replacement ,but don't bet the farm on it and if you have a fitment problem with the cover , that's some thing you will have to have access to all components to straighten out , to do it correctly.
This going to sound a bit odd, but I had a front intake push rod cover leaking on my older Pan and for some reason it wrapped around and the leak went around and showed it self right in the same place you have your leak and it even smoked when I'd stop at a light. I found it after I adj. my solids and the leak got worse right away . I changed to the blue seals and no more leak. The top cork seal was hard as a rock and would not reseal.

[VT]

You can hold the Pan covers up off the head while the motor is in the frame, with coat hanger wire hooks or bungee cords. This allows you room enough to remove the old gaskets, by making one slice (above the carburetor) on the high side of both heads. Remove the gasket and take a 3-1/2" magnifying glass and study the footprint on the top and bottom of the gasket. Look for abnormal dips in the surface of the gasket, from blips on the cover holes. You won;t be able to get your covers off, (unless you can tip the motor like someone suggested), but you maybe see where the problem originates.
A new gasket can be installed by slicing a "julie-ann cut" (as in string-bean) to the new gasket (in the same area above the carburetor) and glue the bitter ends with Seal-All®. It's in Vol. 1, but don't buy the book just for it, since it won't cure your problem.
I think your oil exhaust problem is like someone suggested, draining down through an exhaust guide.
Bottom line, imo, you gotta remove the heads and take them to a Pan man. Accurate Engineering comes to mind. Put the Pan covers on a sheet of glass and use feeler gauges to find gaps. Flat mill the bottoms, like you suggest, and re-use them. How do you flat-mill them? I don't know. Chrome resist sanding, but you may have to glue some emery paper to glass and spend a few hours sanding them back and forth.

[dilby]

Excuse my stupidity here....

But from what I gather from the above responses....

Do I have an over-oiling condition, OR, do I have a oil drain blockage condition...OR...BOTH????

1)If it is an over-oiling condition, how might I correct it from over-oiling just to the front head? Do I use some sort of jet in the line to restrict flow? If so, how will I know what size jet to use to properly restrict oil flow?

Also, could the over oiling condition be the real cause of the rocker cover leak to the front head?


2)If it is an oil drainage issue, what can I do to correct this problem short of tearing off the heads and checking the jug passages for blockages??? Is there anything I can do to check for blockages without having to tear into the top end of the motor???


Thanks for the advice on replacing the gasket...I will try to do it this weekend and report my results.

[VT]

Do the gasket change out. imo, Ride it till it quits running and then have the heads re-done. If it's oil by-passing the valve guide, you have to ask yourself, "do my guides have valve stem seals?". If not, then you need them, imo.
Number 1 fact about Knuckle and Panhead motors. If you don't take them to someone that's done 5 million heads, then you're taking it to the wrong person.
No, there is nothing to take the oil from pooling in the top of the head, only gravity and suction from the timed breather valve. Make sure your pushrod corks aren't leaking. If you don't see oil streaming down the sides of the push rod tubes, then their not leaking.
You can't do anything to these motors without starting over. You only learn a lesson one way, by throwing money at it, then throw some more money at it, but this time have a Pan man do it. Don't listen to anyone but us. Beware of sirens, singing their tempestuous (i love this spell-check , man) songs of cheap prices and "Aw-w- Harley did it all wrong, blah, blah, blah" "mechanics", drink's a big glug of alcohol), ..belch!.
Take the heads to Accurate or Stett (619) 590-8282. If you take them to Stett, you can come back on line and ruin his name, if he does them wrong. Ride it till it smokes and stops or lift the cover and look for seals, with a pen-lit flashlight. If you don't see the s/s and white Crane seals, then send the heads to a Pan God.
-----------------------------------------------
Thanks for verifying his credentials. We're all on the same page then.
Imo, I'd call the builder then before you touch it. As a repair plumber, I wouldn't like anyone touching my repair work. Not that any customer ever would. So, motors builders are no different.
I figured out the d-ring screws are torqued to 15 in. lbs. though.

[dilby]

This motor was freshly rebuilt by a guy thats done a billion and one head and motor rebuilds, master service technician of everything HD AND Indian, and all around good guy...he'll stand behind his work 100% fer sure.

Not everyone's perfect on every build, but standing behind it makes the difference....and Ive dealt with so called "explosion-proof" master builders whose work was exceptionally "explosion prone" and didnt stand behind their work one bit.

But, I wanted to see what sorts of problems I might be faced with before I bring it back to him. Plus, I like to do things for myself for my own knowledge base.

Now, Im not quite sure if it has seals, but knowing the builder and his work, Im sure it does...but, I will find out.

And no leaks from pushrod tubes, so I can rule that out.

Now, how do I check for proper oil drainage from the head in the event that their may be a blockage...other than checking for proper flow back to the oil tank???

[108]

dilby, Ride it awhile, park it, then take the front pipe off the head and watch up in the port every few minutes and see if oil starts running down the exhaust valve stem ( if it's not already covered with burnt oil). I doubt that its over oiling but the oil may be getting too deep in the spring pocket area for some reason before it can drain down the push rod tube. Then check your detailed copy of your repair bill from your 'Panhead guy" and see if valve seals are listed or not. Then take it back to him , tell him exactly what it doing and have him call you when its fixed! Why are you messing with it ? Let him back up his work! - and then you can compare what he finds to what has been mentioned here. Good luck.

[Panacea]

So the head won't come off when the motor is in the frame? You only need about 1/8" above the pan cover to lift over the fire ring. Mike

[dilby]

Motor man is half a world away from me....thats why its not going right back to him. If its something I can take care of myself, I will. Thanks for all the concern though.

I will be doing exploratory surgery this weekend to fix leak and replace with new gasket WITHOUT pulling the head. Once rocker cover is off I will check for seal. Motorman says they are there. I will pull of front pipe and check for an oiling condition inside and on the outside of the exh port.

Also to to be sure there is proper drainage, I can blow a bit of air prssure into timing hole while rocker cover is off and see if I can feel the air in the drainhole in the head.

That all seems logical and piss easy.

If I do find an oiling condition in the exhaust port...head comes off and goes back to motorman.

Simple enough.

[VT]

All right then. Thanks for getting back with a quick reply as to your plans. We're all mechanics here. No different than a team of doctors. Same level of discipline and our time is valuable. We're here to help and learn, so ride a problem until the wheels fall off of it, and then stay with it until the last wheel slowly turns to a stop.
And be descriptive. We like details of the problem solving. Part numbers are sometimes a help too, where needed, when possible. And tell your mechanic about the site here. We always appreciate higher knowledge of any subject related to Knuckle and Panheads.

[Robert Luland]

Dilby let me lay this on ya. Many moons ago back in the late seventies I got tired of seeing oil dripping from that front pan head so I set out on a mission to resolve the problem permanently Dirt boys! Dirt it’s the culprit. Since I figured this out I have never had a leak in a pan head again. (Those STD heads. I had the fourth or fifth set that they made in 85 or 86. The fourth time I took the bike out one of the valve seats fell out because the seat socket hadn’t been clean properly after machining. Man O man there was a lot of busted aluminum) Here’s the leak proof secret. I start by wiping down the gasket surface with lacquer thinner. You can have the cleanest looking part but wipe it down with lacquer thinner and a white rag and you would be amazed of the crap that comes off. Do not use paint thinner or spirits as they leave a residue behind. Repeat this on the head and pan until the rag stays clean. Now get your self one of those every day pan gaskets. That’s right you don’t have to go out and blow twenty bucks on gaskets to get it leak proof. The next step is the sealer. Yama bond 4 or 5. Just tell the parts guy you want the light gray one. This is produced in the states under a name like TreeBond Liquid Gasket 1104 but Yamaha just slaps their name on it. I used to get it from Flanders. This stuff like silicon will ruin your engine if not applied properly. Before you say this guy is full of it let me explain? Silicone and Yama bond do not brake down in oil. If used in excess it will circulate though you engine plugging crank journals etc I’ve ripped engines down only to pull gobs of gasket sealer out. To avoid this do the following. I collect the gray cardboard backings off the yellow legal pads I use. I smear the gasket down on one side and stick it to the cardboard I then coat the other side flip it on the cardboard. The gasket just needs to be in permeated. No excess. I have never torqued my pan bolts but if it makes ya happy. Do it! See that was painless. Bob