63 valve seat

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badran33
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63 valve seat

#1

Post by badran33 »

Hello Guys,
as has passed so much from my presentation to this my first post first of all i'd like to reintrodce myself:
my name is Guerrino, i lived in North Italy in a little place in the adriatic cost, i'm 40 years old. i work in the business of civil construction but the few free hours that i can have are divided between my son Mattia (4 year old) and the garage where ai i like to wrench on old motorcycles,preferably harleys.
After a 3 years complete restoration of a shovel Electra Glide (75) now i've purchased a 63 panhead engine that will go in a rigid frame for a chopper project.
in the photoes you can see what i've found in one head. it looks like both of the seats had been removed in a drastic way and the boards even excavated in try of removed the inner bronze insert.
my question is what to do now: have i to go on in this way trying to remove the insert (how long is "inside" this insert??)than weld to report at a factory size and put a new seat or enlarge the seats and use a bigger one? in the othre head the previous owner removed the seats too but with no damage.
thanks in advice for all the suggestions.
G.
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Cotten
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Re: 63 valve seat

#2

Post by Cotten »

Welcome back, Guerrino!

It appears somebody got ahead of themself, not realizing that the cast-in bronze inserts have tangs that extend well into the casting itself.
Occasionally they can even be exposed by over-porting the intake tract, or undue press when installing fresh inserts.
SEATBORE.jpg
I also see welding that may not be of an advantage to you.

The risky fad of hardened inserts has faded, and there are rumors of bronze inserts now being produced. I have been out of motorwork too long to have chased any down: Perhaps Kibblewhite.
OEM bronze inserts still exist,
panseats.jpg
but may not be large enough on two dimensions to accomodate the damage.

One speed shop that I worked out of in the mid-'80s had me carve all of the bronze from the castings, and then the bores were tediously TIG'd closed enough for a fresh insert counterbore.
It may be your only recourse, as I do not know if even "Headhog"'s spray-weld overlay process can be applied.

OEM 1963 heads would be worth the extra expense.
Are they indeed "overhead oilers"?

...Cotten
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old.wrench
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Re: 63 valve seat

#3

Post by old.wrench »

Guerrino,

From the pictures, it looks like your at the point that Cotten mentioned -

"One speed shop that I worked out of in the mid-'80s had me carve all of the bronze from the castings, and then the bores were tediously TIG'd closed enough for a fresh insert counterbore."

It may be that you can still get away with just using the oversize replacement seats without welding too.. You just need to find somebody experienced and trustworthy to do the repair. Some of the guys go to a larger intake valve (shovelhead size), but there are mixed opinions on that modification :) .

Geo.
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Re: 63 valve seat

#4

Post by jdpan »

Cotten wrote:Welcome back, Guerrino!

It appears somebody got ahead of themself, not realizing that the cast-in bronze inserts have tangs that extend well into the casting itself.
Occasionally they can even be exposed by over-porting the intake tract, or undue press when installing fresh inserts.
SEATBORE.jpg
I also see welding that may not be of an advantage to you.

The risky fad of hardened inserts has faded, and there are rumors of bronze inserts now being produced. I have been out of motorwork too long to have chased any down: Perhaps Kibblewhite.
OEM bronze inserts still exist,
panseats.jpg
but may not be large enough on two dimensions to accomodate the damage.

One speed shop that I worked out of in the mid-'80s had me carve all of the bronze from the castings, and then the bores were tediously TIG'd closed enough for a fresh insert counterbore.
It may be your only recourse, as I do not know if even "Headhog"'s spray-weld overlay process can be applied.

OEM 1963 heads would be worth the extra expense.
Are they indeed "overhead oilers"?

...Cotten
I've occasionally seen these on Ebay..
58flh
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Re: 63 valve seat

#5

Post by 58flh »

TO bad on the seats!,& 1-guide for that head to!.--ARE they FIXABLE--(HEADHOG would give you a go or no go answer!-I have seen Dons work & its the BEST out there!.ALSO very expensive!!!!!--IT would be cheaper to get a used set & go from there!-(cheaper)-However your not out of the woods entirely!--I have at one time A set og heads & 1-was destroyed as yours!-(they tried to press it out.)-WELL after some thought I had a TIG-MAN weld-up the guide area & fill in the where the seat would go!--After getting the correct angle I drilled the head for a new GUIDE!-PRESSED it in wil a dab of LOC-tite.AS for the seat -the olny option was to go oversize & use the good metal in the combustion chamber.-So the valve never went in so far as the original seat ,but I nut the new seat into the original ALUM. on head!.VERY BARBARIC & CRUDE by todays standard!--U fly-cut the piston for clearance as head of valve was CLOSER to the JAM-up point.We used stock fl cam.& I had to tip the valvestem a lot & machine keepers for it!.I shimmed the valvespring with a .020 washer -(homemade)-for more seat-pressure as I know this was not if it would work?--JUST HOW LONG!---IT fired-up in 5-min!& after operating temp was there I tuned a KEHIEN on it!.--IT ran very well!---IT took him thru the summer where he socked-away cash for a set of new OEM heads!.HE put about 4000-miles tops on it that year & without any backlash!--SO it does work!--BUT today with TALENT like HEADHOG I wouldn't even do it!--(Donnie is EXPENSIVE!$$$$$--BUT worth every PENNY!.YOU can purchase a new set of STD heads & get to running & it will be cheaper then that fix!.When we ripped the head off I had to see it OFCOURSE & when I popped out the valve there was a NICE shiny ALUM-RING!--(it had perfect seal!)-However it was getting slowly hammered into the head!--I found that by measuring the HIGHT!-&-comparing to my noted from a year ago.--MY best thing I think you should do is get OEM-HEADS -top oilers if it must be!--But if you are not pursuing a TRAILER-QUEEN build--thers options you have!.--JUST 1-guys EXP. on something I really had no faith in!--BUT my buddy more or less coaxed me into it!.& IT WORKED!.---suggestion---talk to headhog & see what he thinks first!--IF he says he can fix it!--Be prepared to wait ALONG-TIME as HE is always busy!.FIND some heads ready to fo & run-in the bottom-end so its ready for the MATCHED-SET particular to that engine !.THERE are other oem heads that will be correct NUMBER-WISE & that would be my route if I had to do it!---RESPECTFULLY---RICHIE
badran33
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Re: 63 valve seat

#6

Post by badran33 »

thanks guys for all of your suggestions.
i have found this on youtube " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, i think that is the procedure Mr. Cotten refers to and that i would leave as last alternative.
so first step is considering the bore size of the seat after it has enlarged and see if i can put a larger new seat (and in this case better a bronze one like this http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/vi ... ?forward=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or a one like this http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/it ... e/10-sc510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?)....?
thanks
G.
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Re: 63 valve seat

#7

Post by Cotten »

Guerrino!

I would ask of Kibblewhite which material requires the least press-fit within the aluminum casting.

Any interference required over .0045" (.1143mm) risks cracking the head

.....Cotten
badran33
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Re: 63 valve seat

#8

Post by badran33 »

Cotten wrote:Guerrino!

I would ask of Kibblewhite which material requires the least press-fit within the aluminum casting.

Any interference required over .0045" (.1143mm) risks cracking the head

.....Cotten
thanks. this is golden. i'll send a message immediatly....

G.
badran33
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Re: 63 valve seat

#9

Post by badran33 »

Cotten wrote:Guerrino!

I would ask of Kibblewhite which material requires the least press-fit within the aluminum casting.

Any interference required over .0045" (.1143mm) risks cracking the head

.....Cotten
This is from the KPMI site:

KPMI recommends that when seats are removed, the counter bore in the head is then machined to produce a round accurate and well finished counter bore. KPMI offers the follow valve seat installation interference fits:

KPMI Bronze seat installed into an Aluminum Cyl. Head Min. 0.006" Max 0.008"
KPMI Bronze seat installed into a Cast Iron Cyl. Head: Min. 0.005" Max. 0.007"
KPMI Powder metal seat installed into Aluminum Cyl. Head: Min. 0.006" Max 0.008"
KPMI Powder metal seat installed into Cast Iron Cyl. Head: Min. 0.005" Max 0.007"
KPMI recommends heating the head to a minimum of 350° and using nickel based never seize when installing seat(s) with the aid of professional drivers and pilots. KPMI also recommends the use of Liquid nitrogen when production volumes can offset costs.

So looks like i could have a problem....
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Re: 63 valve seat

#10

Post by Cotten »

That is disappointing, G,.

As much as I have always appreciated Kibblewhite products, it appears that they have fallen into the "better idea" trap.
The OEM replacements in my previous post only require .002" interference.
Your later heads are sturdier than pre-'55 castings, yet stressing them is still a concern. (There is no more sickening of a sound than to hear a "tink" from the next room as a head splits itself twenty minutes after an installation.

The need for such gross interference fits arises not only from the different thermal expansion coefficients, but the propensity for some metals to shrink if they reach a critical temperature. Spikes in combustion chamber temperatures, whether from advance timing, poor fuels, or vacuum leaks, caused a great many conventional hardened seats to fall out. (Even OEM shovelhead seats were not immune in the early '80s.)

.....Cotten
badran33
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Re: 63 valve seat

#11

Post by badran33 »

ittle better this from Rowe:

The O.D. on all Rowe valve seats is machined with a generous starting radius which allows a precise machining to the desired size. Recommended press fit: Aluminum heads .005”-.007”; cast iron heads .004”-.005”.
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Re: 63 valve seat

#12

Post by Cotten »

G!

I believe the Rowe seats are like Martite, K.O. Lee, etc.: conventional hardened "tool steel", and very much subject to shrinkage if they reach their critical temperature.

Their actual interference is ~.002" at running temperatures.
Folks run them, but heat spikes must be avoided at all costs.

It is a shame that ordinary bronze replacements, which worked well for a generation, are extinct.

....Cotten
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Re: 63 valve seat

#13

Post by Cotten »

Folks,

I have been alerted off-forum than my information about the OEM bronze seats is incorrect.

They can only be installed within the original bronze cast-in seats at a lighter press, and even then, .0035" minimum is suggested.

When the original seats are completely removed, a much larger insert is required, and the greater press-fit associated with other metals must be used as well.
The need for such a tight press is not only to accomodate the different expansion rates, but for heat transfer to the head casting itself.

Sorry for the confusion,

....Cotten
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Re: 63 valve seat

#14

Post by 58flh »

I have always run iron ROWE guides!--BUT I don't think you can get them anymore!.Im sure there out ther PLENTY are hanging on to them & If someone will part with a set,It will be ywice what the original price was.--Iron guides,-If they have a chamfer on top -THAT needs to be faced-off so you have a 90-degree piece!--Then use TEFLON seals -(manly are nice I have never had an issue!.Use the TOOL provided to set them onto the guide!.-I have been using Manly valves lately & .002-3 on intake guide clearance is BEST!-(I go for .002)-But some may feel that .003 is to much!--Its not!--It will work just fine!,-On the EX. I use .003!-again never had an issue!.--Seat-pressure must be EQUAL!--(I olny reuse spings if PRESSURE is within 3lbs. of each other.If not You can add a .030 shim under the springs & YOU will be GOOD!,Next Valves must be tipped so hight is equal on all. The arm should have a straight line in the middle!-That's a properly seated guide!,& Tipped valve!---(This should be checked before final assembly of all parts!)--use a sharpie & color the top of valve & run it thru a few cycles by hand while adding pressure by hand,Then check the missing marker-line!--If straight GOOD.--Make-sure the arms ramp is properly dressed!--I hit the sides olny if arc is good ,just to remove any sharp edges.----RESPECTFULY---RICHIE
badran33
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Re: 63 valve seat

#15

Post by badran33 »

thanks to all for the precious advices. new guides have been installed and the seats been bored. in the next days i have to go to the machinist's shop and i'll do some photos to post.
since he has to custom work on the height of the seat and we don't have a good point of reference in any of the two heads, he need to know how is the correct measure the valve need...
maybe a mesure like the picture...
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