Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Hey all-
I'm buying a new Andrews close-ratio transmission gear set for my '60 pan and have a couple questions.
- I'm running an older BDL belt primary (I don't have the teeth count on the pulleys at hand)
- Chain final drive; 25T transmission sprocket and 49T at the rear
- Bike is a VERY light hardtail chopper; spool wheel, rear disc brake, 1 gallon tank, etc.
Will the Andrews FX 2.44 1st gear be too tall for a decent start? Is the 2.60 a better option?
Is there a Custom Chrome product number for the full Andrews kits (6 gears, 2 shift clutches, and 2forks)? I can only find the individual gear sets in their online catalog.
Thanks for your help!
I'm buying a new Andrews close-ratio transmission gear set for my '60 pan and have a couple questions.
- I'm running an older BDL belt primary (I don't have the teeth count on the pulleys at hand)
- Chain final drive; 25T transmission sprocket and 49T at the rear
- Bike is a VERY light hardtail chopper; spool wheel, rear disc brake, 1 gallon tank, etc.
Will the Andrews FX 2.44 1st gear be too tall for a decent start? Is the 2.60 a better option?
Is there a Custom Chrome product number for the full Andrews kits (6 gears, 2 shift clutches, and 2forks)? I can only find the individual gear sets in their online catalog.
Thanks for your help!
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:35 pm
- Bikes: 1951 panhead , 1995 dyna
- Has thanked: 116 times
- Been thanked: 47 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Your already tall with the 25/49 setup. Run the FX gears, and drop the sprocket to 24 or 23. I would contact Andrews directly , they have an online catalog
Adam
Adam
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2404
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:28 am
- Bikes: 1950Panhead
- Location: USA
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 366 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Why do you want this?I'm buying a new Andrews close-ratio transmission gear set for my '60 pan and have a couple questions.
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Pulled the transmission to replace leaking mainshaft seal, and found very worn out original gears in the process. Having the entire thing rebuilt with quality Andrews and Jims products to ensure the best reliability. Seeing as I have to replace everything, and a lightweight bike, I would think something other than stock gearing would be a better fit.1950Panhead wrote:Why do you want this?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2404
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:28 am
- Bikes: 1950Panhead
- Location: USA
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 366 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
The original gear ratios work good.
If you get a close ratio set toward low end bike will over rev while cruising.
If you get a close ratio set toward high end clutch will suffer to get going.
Andrews makes stock gear sets, I used a set once.
Think about it some, or you can ask questions.
Jerry
If you get a close ratio set toward low end bike will over rev while cruising.
If you get a close ratio set toward high end clutch will suffer to get going.
Andrews makes stock gear sets, I used a set once.
Think about it some, or you can ask questions.
Jerry
-
- Moderator
- Senior Member
- Posts: 8376
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
- Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
- Has thanked: 478 times
- Been thanked: 2933 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
I run close ratio Andrews gears in my stock '47 Knuckle with a belt drive. It works great, no issues with the clutch using a '68 up type, and it is the smoothest shifting bike i have. Just my personal take on it. And it has put on lots of miles fully loaded with them.
Robbie
Robbie
-
- Former member
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3332
- Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:54 pm
- Bikes: 1958flh 1969sporty,had a knuckle but sold back to original owner
- Location: NEW JERSEY
- Has thanked: 195 times
- Been thanked: 277 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
I have installed Andrews close-ratio sets on a few bikes/& there Still going strong!,Nothing wrong with over revving & grenade sounding at 55!--But none of the bikes were running belts!---Use the gear calculater in the K-Base & you will find out what yer 1st gear will be like!///You may need to start in 2nd if you order the wrong ratio!--(1st will be used for weelies).---Ive done it!----Respectfully---Richie
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Buy the 2:60 first gear. With your gearing, the 2:44 will be tough to get the bike moving. I have Andrews gears in several Panheads and love them.
VPH-D
VPH-D
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1500
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
- Bikes: 1937 U big flathead, 88" stroker, dual port, big cams, pop-up pistons
- Location: Lynbrook, New York
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 387 times
- Contact:
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
You're painting yourself into a corner with that tall gearing.
If you're not careful, you'll wind up with one of those (supposedly mythical) bikes that "go faster in 3rd than in 4th".
The engine will drop off badly on the 3-4 shift (because of the "close ratio" 3rd gear) and you will be left with a very wide range of RPM and MPH in which only 4th gear can be reached.
That's the reason why the original 4-speed (and 5-speed) final shift into high gear is so close - so you can slow the motor down with sprockets and still have a "passing gear" at 90 MPH.
I can't think of any vehicle made with such a steep drop into high gear.
I agree, the 2.60 is a better choice than the 2.44, but only 6% better. Even the 2.60 is far weaker (as a torque multiplier) than the stock 1st gear.
I don't consider "I run one, and it's fine" a strong endorsement, and very few people go out of their way to say "boy, did I waste my money".
To me, the important question is: "does it take more throttle and more clutch to come away from a dead stop cleanly with a 2.60 than with the stock gear?", and the answer is "always".
I have a 3.34 1st gear and very tall gearing, and the bike would be a slug with a different 1st gear.
If you're not careful, you'll wind up with one of those (supposedly mythical) bikes that "go faster in 3rd than in 4th".
The engine will drop off badly on the 3-4 shift (because of the "close ratio" 3rd gear) and you will be left with a very wide range of RPM and MPH in which only 4th gear can be reached.
That's the reason why the original 4-speed (and 5-speed) final shift into high gear is so close - so you can slow the motor down with sprockets and still have a "passing gear" at 90 MPH.
I can't think of any vehicle made with such a steep drop into high gear.
I agree, the 2.60 is a better choice than the 2.44, but only 6% better. Even the 2.60 is far weaker (as a torque multiplier) than the stock 1st gear.
I don't consider "I run one, and it's fine" a strong endorsement, and very few people go out of their way to say "boy, did I waste my money".
To me, the important question is: "does it take more throttle and more clutch to come away from a dead stop cleanly with a 2.60 than with the stock gear?", and the answer is "always".
I have a 3.34 1st gear and very tall gearing, and the bike would be a slug with a different 1st gear.
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
I'm just not a big fan of the old "truck" first gear. You can't even get thru an intersection before shifting to second. I like the 2:60 first much better.
kitabel's comments about gearing and the close ratio 3rd gear shortcomings are accurate. You're going to need more motor to use those those gears. It is easy to over gear your bike.
I've used about every combination of Andrews gears over the years, and have settled down to just the 2:44 first, and their shifter clutches as my favorite set up. I run a 23 or 24 on the trans.
VPH-D
kitabel's comments about gearing and the close ratio 3rd gear shortcomings are accurate. You're going to need more motor to use those those gears. It is easy to over gear your bike.
I've used about every combination of Andrews gears over the years, and have settled down to just the 2:44 first, and their shifter clutches as my favorite set up. I run a 23 or 24 on the trans.
VPH-D
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
True words. Thank you for the input.VPH-D wrote:I don't consider "I run one, and it's fine" a strong endorsement, and very few people go out of their way to say "boy, did I waste my money".
I'm going with the 2.44 first, stock 3rd-4th, and change the trans sprocket to 23/24. I think I'll do OK getting moving one-up on a very stripped down bike.VPH-D wrote:I'm just not a big fan of the old "truck" first gear. You can't even get thru an intersection before shifting to second. I like the 2:60 first much better.
kitabel's comments about gearing and the close ratio 3rd gear shortcomings are accurate. You're going to need more motor to use those those gears. It is easy to over gear your bike.
I've used about every combination of Andrews gears over the years, and have settled down to just the 2:44 first, and their shifter clutches as my favorite set up. I run a 23 or 24 on the trans.
VPH-D
-
- Moderator
- Senior Member
- Posts: 8376
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:09 am
- Bikes: Multiple H-D, Ducati, BMW, Triumph, BSA,...
- Has thanked: 478 times
- Been thanked: 2933 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
So real world response isn't of any value to you? Why waste our time here asking for input? Just do what the self proclaimed experts say.I don't consider "I run one, and it's fine" a strong endorsement, and very few people go out of their way to say "boy, did I waste my money".
True words. Thank you for the input.
I'm done with this thread...
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1500
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:10 pm
- Bikes: 1937 U big flathead, 88" stroker, dual port, big cams, pop-up pistons
- Location: Lynbrook, New York
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 387 times
- Contact:
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
You can't even get thru an intersection before shifting to second
Easy way to tell when to shift: if 1st is 3.004:1, that means the top speed (or any speed) in 1st is 1 ÷ 3.004 or roughly 1/3 of your final drive.
One reason why the 3.00 feels like it crosses the intersection quickly: it's faster than the 2.44 - it has 22.6% more torque at the same throttle opening and RPM.
Bike is geared to do 120 top end? 1st gear works up to 40 mph.
How about the 2.44 (BTW: it's 2.447:1, so rounded off is 2.45)? 1 ÷ 2.447 = 41%, or 49 mph.
It will take a while longer to get there - your motor torque × gear multiplier is 18% smaller.
I've lived through several generations of GM owners who bought the "close ratio" 2.20:1 4-speed (BTW: that 1st gear isn't closer, it's just different) for their GTO, 442 etc. - you know, because it's faster? and they're sorry every time they drive the car. They get smoked by the "ordinary" 2.52:1 box with anything like street axle ratios.
Personally, I found driving in traffic with a low numerical 1st gear to be very annoying, hence my choice.
Easy way to tell when to shift: if 1st is 3.004:1, that means the top speed (or any speed) in 1st is 1 ÷ 3.004 or roughly 1/3 of your final drive.
One reason why the 3.00 feels like it crosses the intersection quickly: it's faster than the 2.44 - it has 22.6% more torque at the same throttle opening and RPM.
Bike is geared to do 120 top end? 1st gear works up to 40 mph.
How about the 2.44 (BTW: it's 2.447:1, so rounded off is 2.45)? 1 ÷ 2.447 = 41%, or 49 mph.
It will take a while longer to get there - your motor torque × gear multiplier is 18% smaller.
I've lived through several generations of GM owners who bought the "close ratio" 2.20:1 4-speed (BTW: that 1st gear isn't closer, it's just different) for their GTO, 442 etc. - you know, because it's faster? and they're sorry every time they drive the car. They get smoked by the "ordinary" 2.52:1 box with anything like street axle ratios.
Personally, I found driving in traffic with a low numerical 1st gear to be very annoying, hence my choice.
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
By using a 2:44 first with a 23 on the trans, you'll have the same set up as 74 and later Superlides, a nice set up.
VPH-D
VPH-D
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 614
- Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:04 pm
- Bikes: 1949 FL Chopper
- Has thanked: 5 times
- Been thanked: 37 times
Re: Yet Another 4-Speed Ratio Question!
Since when is real world experience NOT a strong endorsement? Very few people will endorse something they don't believe in. If they spent their money and it didn't work, you are much more likely to get silence rather then an endorsement.RUBONE wrote:So real world response isn't of any value to you? Why waste our time here asking for input? Just do what the self proclaimed experts say.I don't consider "I run one, and it's fine" a strong endorsement, and very few people go out of their way to say "boy, did I waste my money".
True words. Thank you for the input.
I'm done with this thread...
I'll add another endorsement for the close ratio gear set. I've put about 115K miles on my panhead with close ratio gears and I love it. I definitely did not waste my money.
-Craig