BEEN THINKIN ABOUT THIS.....

[44RIMFIRE]

HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL!

I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS FOR SOME TIME AND FINALLY HAD A CHANCE TO PUT THIS ON THE FORUM.

IF I HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY 52FL WITH HARD STARTING OR NOT RUNNING OR IDLING GOOD, WHAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO CHECK....RIGHT, AIR LEAK AROUND MANIFOLD. OK, HERE IS THE FUNNY THING. IF YOU LOOK AT THE TROUBLE SHOOTING CHARTS IN THE FACTORY PANHEAD MANUAL, IT NEVER EVEN MENTIONS THIS AS AN ITEM TO CHECK.

MY QUESTION: WAS A LEAKY MANIFOLD JUST NOT A PROBLEM BACK THEN - WHICH MEANS WHAT DID THEY KNOW THAT WE DON'T -OR- DID THEY JUST NOT KNOW TO CHECK THIS?

44RIMFIRE

[Cotten]

HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL!

I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS FOR SOME TIME AND FINALLY HAD A CHANCE TO PUT THIS ON THE FORUM.

IF I HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY 52FL WITH HARD STARTING OR NOT RUNNING OR IDLING GOOD, WHAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO CHECK....RIGHT, AIR LEAK AROUND MANIFOLD. OK, HERE IS THE FUNNY THING. IF YOU LOOK AT THE TROUBLE SHOOTING CHARTS IN THE FACTORY PANHEAD MANUAL, IT NEVER EVEN MENTIONS THIS AS AN ITEM TO CHECK.

MY QUESTION: WAS A LEAKY MANIFOLD JUST NOT A PROBLEM BACK THEN - WHICH MEANS WHAT DID THEY KNOW THAT WE DON'T -OR- DID THEY JUST NOT KNOW TO CHECK THIS?

44RIMFIRE

44RIMFIRE!

The MOCO was certainly aware of the EML problem, as shown by their endless re-designing of the manifold appliances.

And they were certainly aware of bubbletesting, as shown on page 93 of the '48-'57 Service Manual.

It is indeed a mystery as to why a #9 rubber stopper with a nipple through it is not part of the tool arsenal. They would have sold a lot o' manifolds.

....Cotten

[44RIMFIRE]

COTTEN, I AGREE, BUT THE PROCEDURE IS WAY AT THE BACK AND KINDA OBSCURE. WHY WOULD IT NOT BE TOP 5 TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS IN FRONT OF MANUAL??

44RIMFIRE

[jason.weir]

COTTEN, I AGREE, BUT THE PROCEDURE IS WAY AT THE BACK AND KINDA OBSCURE. WHY WOULD IT NOT BE TOP 5 TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS IN FRONT OF MANUAL??

44RIMFIRE

Been my experience with manuals that the guy writing them and the guy fixing stuff are not allowed to talk...

Aircraft maintenance manuals are famous for this kind of stuff.. "To remove starter, remove 4 bolts securing starter to engine housing, and remove starter" should have read "To remove starter, spend 3 hours removing stuff so you can see the starter, remove 3 bolts, to remove 4th bolt stand on your head and contort your body into the most uncomfortable and unhealthy position possible then use a 6ft 3/8" extension and 4 swivels to remove bolt which will fall into the most unacceptable area possible."

-J

[44RIMFIRE]

HA! GREAT ANSWER

44RIMFIRE

[Cotten]

44RIMFIRE!

You will not get any arguement from me;
the MOCO screwed up.

....Cotten

[Bosheff]

Dealerships never have and still don't pay the bills by motorcycle sales alone. Service is a large part of their business. H-D knew this back then as well as today. Before the 90's, there was not near as large a bolt on/chrome/customizing market as there is today. Back then motorcycles were largely used for daily transportation, not profiling....bosheff

[kevsett]

Did the fuels of that time eat the o rings as bad as modern fuels do? I do know that my dad's bike had lots of EML hard starting issues even back in the late 70's and he sometimes kicked his rear end off to get it started. I didn't officially find out about the widespread problems and solutions to EMLs until this forum. Shops that took a look at my bike back in the mid 90's either wanted me to think it was junk so they could steal it from me or danced around manifold and carb leaks with sealants and new o rings and using starting fluid to check; but no advice for the future and certainly none on the proper way to check for leaks and for a leak proof seal.

[FlatHeadSix]

I have always believed that the MoCo never publically made a big issue about manifold leaks is because it would have been an admission of bad engineering. As Cotten mentioned, they changed the system several times trying to improve it. The original "plumber" style connections were almost bulletproof when properly installed using new components, and the brass rings were impervious to just about anything, even the modern fuel additives we have to deal with today. But they were also dependent on close tolerances, perfectly sealed nipples with good faces, perfectly round manifolds, proper installation, and, of course, bubbletesting after everything went together to make sure all the components of the system worked in harmony with each other.

"O" rings are a whole nuther deal, don't get me started.

Bottom line, 10 to 15 PSI and soapy water, do it often!

mike

[Cotten]

Folks,

Even "plumber's"-style manifolds weren't such a big deal when you could get a fresh one over the counter.

On to the cost-saving O-ring "solution",
digestive fuels have always been an issue, athough the problem peaked in the late '80s to mid '90s. The last couple of years have only reported extremely digestive fuels from the Pacific Northwest, but next years, summer blends could always be deusies in your region.

JAMES viton O-rings resist my local fuels that swell common nitrile three times their size.

....Cotten

[George Greer]

COTTEN, I AGREE, BUT THE PROCEDURE IS WAY AT THE BACK AND KINDA OBSCURE. WHY WOULD IT NOT BE TOP 5 TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS IN FRONT OF MANUAL??

44RIMFIRE

Been my experience with manuals that the guy writing them and the guy fixing stuff are not allowed to talk...

Aircraft maintenance manuals are famous for this kind of stuff.. "To remove starter, remove 4 bolts securing starter to engine housing, and remove starter" should have read "To remove starter, spend 3 hours removing stuff so you can see the starter, remove 3 bolts, to remove 4th bolt stand on your head and contort your body into the most uncomfortable and unhealthy position possible then use a 6ft 3/8" extension and 4 swivels to remove bolt which will fall into the most unacceptable area possible."

-J

Jason,

You are 100% correct. I am a A&P mechanic, and I work on helicopters, so I feel your pain about removing extra stuff just to be able to get at main problem.

George

[58flh]

I dont know when this happened but my usual fill me up station has just added 10 percent ethynol to all thier grades of fuel---What effect do you guys think it will have on vitron seats & o-rings if any?---58flh SORRY for going off the suject at hand!

[Cotten]

58flh!

Viton darkens, but it does not expand measurably.

VITNTST.jpg

Expansion is the problem with conventional "rubbers".

P4ORING1.jpg

ORING.jpg

As far as seats (I presume you mean the floatvalve), beware of needles claimed to be viton but obviously not.

VITON.jpg

One again, although adding ethanol to gasoline is folly,
it is not the ethanol alone that attacks rubbers and plastics; it is the ever-changing un-named additives that go with it.

....Cotten

[58flh]

COTTON----THanks for the input!---I just filled-up & noticed the sighn!---Now I know from building some go-fast bikes you need special seats(yes float needle & seat) cause the alcohol as tyou know eats em up fast!---But at 10 percent It really wont make a difference---its the other ingrediants like you said our (trusted)EPA is not telling us!---Thank-YOU Cotton----Richie